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Recent wipes in Heroic SV - was it the paladin or the player

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Recent wipes in Heroic SV - was it the paladin or the player

Postby Sparti » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:49 am

I just got out of a heroic steamvaults run with a very well geared paladin healer. I was tanking (of course), and he was healing. Or trying to. We made it past the entry trash without any problems and pulled the overlord, and the healer consistently let me die. He kept switching to the rogue who was standing in the Stomp and then back to me. At about 30%, I'd die every time because the heal per second I was taking was not enough to keep me up.

I don't know anything about paladin healing outside of it's long term efficiency, and I god damn well KNOW this wasn't me or my gear. I'm uncrittable, at 14k hp with buffs, with 20% dodge and 90% overall avoidance after holy shield. I did this place when I was 12 hours into 70 at 440 defense with a shadow priest healing me - if that worked, I don't see why a paladin with 1300 healing unbuffed + 15% spellcrit unbuffed couldn't keep me up.

The guy was a real prick about it, spent a solid twenty minutes ripping on me, telling me I didn't know how to play or gear my class and that it was my fault, using comparisons like JADE SKULL BREASTPLATE IS THE BEST TANKING CHEST, (I have vindicator's. Considering the fight, I think Vindicator's was the better choice) YOURS SUCKS AND IS AWFUL and YOUR BRACERS ARE TERRIBLE (green fortress ftw) and YOU HAVE ALL THAT SPELL DAMAGE (I have 150 spelldamage. I don't have ENOUGH.) And the rogue who was with us started backing up the paladin (Maybe he wouldn't have had to split healing if I wasn't getting aggro by auto-attacking! - nevermind that bog overlords have an AOE that hits everything in melee range for massive damage) And even though I knew he was full of shit, I felt horrible about it, I still do. I still know it wasn't me, or my gear. I was doing just fine.

What I really want to know here, is what was the root cause of this. Can paladins just not heal heroic sv? Or heroics in general? Or was it the fact that the paladin's player was awful and the rogue was too stupid to get out of the AOE? I think I know the answer here, but I want to be sure. If I bring more paladins to heal me, are they going to pull this same juvenile shit whenever I die? OH, IT WAS CLEARLY YOUR FAULT. WHAT ARE YOU EVEN DOING IN A HEROIC? LOL, YOU DON'T HAVE GOOD ENOUGH GEAR, LOOK AT WHAT MY WARRIOR IS WEARING ON ARMORY
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Postby Invisusira » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:01 am

Your gear is fine for tanking heroics, although big guys like those bog lords will require the healer to concentrate on you.

You COULD toss something besides those spell damage gems in your gear, tho =3
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Postby Keiran » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:03 am

I have healed it several times, not with a paladin tank though.

Yes, Boglords are terrible. Yes, healing several targets at the boglords are a pain.

But if your gear is like what is shown in your signature, I would be reluctant to bring you. No offense, but 440 defense is just not cutting it.

But I guess its a matter of skill. The healer really have to spam heal there, just to be sure. But you could also help the healer cleansing yourself or the dps. All in all, I think your healer sounds like a prick. I just dont understand why people have to herrash one and another.

If you are uncrittable and have decent avoidance, then a healer with the listed stats should be able to keep you up. Cheer up :-)
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Postby Sparti » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:40 am

Keiran wrote:I have healed it several times, not with a paladin tank though.

Yes, Boglords are terrible. Yes, healing several targets at the boglords are a pain.

But if your gear is like what is shown in your signature, I would be reluctant to bring you. No offense, but 440 defense is just not cutting it.

But I guess its a matter of skill. The healer really have to spam heal there, just to be sure. But you could also help the healer cleansing yourself or the dps. All in all, I think your healer sounds like a prick. I just dont understand why people have to herrash one and another.

If you are uncrittable and have decent avoidance, then a healer with the listed stats should be able to keep you up. Cheer up :-)


signature is not up to date. I'm at 487 defense now with somewhat more hp. Check my armory, signature links to it

Invisusira wrote:Your gear is fine for tanking heroics, although big guys like those bog lords will require the healer to concentrate on you.

You COULD toss something besides those spell damage gems in your gear, tho =3


working on it, actually.

Mostly just trying to get a new belt
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Postby Keiran » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:14 am

Your gear is great, dealing with heroics. Heck, several pug tanks have far worse gear than yours.

But granted, the boglords are still tough, and everyone needs to be on their toes. But with an aware healer it should be possible. Blame the healer :)

As a good friend of mine said, "It's never the tanks fault, especially not if he is the groupleader"
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Postby Stylaan » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:27 am

Heroics are really easy to heal once you outgear them.

They're not much fun to heal with a moderately geared healer, tank, and dps group.

Any kind of AoE damage becomes a chore because quick flashes weaved between tank heals aren't enough to keep up dpsers when you have shit all for +healing. Encounters drag on for much too long when your dps is pulling 500-600 numbers, and it really blows when your tank only has ~13k armor and takes hits up to 1k more than you'd expect them to.

I wouldn't enjoy doing certain heroics as an undergeared paladin healer.

Right now, my FoL crits for 2400 in my +heal gear, it's pretty much enough to keep up with most situational damage as I focus on a tank, plus I've always got a hefty 6k critting HL9 if I need it.

tbh, if the paladin is topping you off, and then dropping a 2s HL9 on the rogue before switching back to you it means you need to survive a full 4 seconds without heals. If you can't manage that, such that you require undivided attention from the paladin then there's really nothing more he can do for you.
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Postby Exodius » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:28 am

Hmmm... I would be inclined to get more spell damage for heroics. I find that T5 level dps just love pumping out threat - errr... I mean damage. Heroic steam vaults tends to attract T5 level people because it's seen as a "hard heroic" (by those who don't know better).

Paladins can only single target heal. They have no HoTs, no area heals, only one instant heal with a talent apart from lay on hands. If they are in a situation where the whole party is being AoEd badly then they can struggle sometimes. Examples in heroics are the last boss of heroic Slave Pens and one of the demon gate key bosses in heroic Mech.

A good healer should focus on the tank first and formost, then themselves (who heals if they are dead) then the dps, then finally any pets (if you kill the player you lose the pet, but it's not the other way around).

If a dps is taking damage while the tank is being smacked till their jaw unhinges, they should let the dps die and keep the tank up. That's their job, that's their priority. A dps can normally shrug off a death if the mob dies and a total wipe does not occur anyway. And if the tank dies, it's normally a wipe. :?

Normally healers are relatively patient and polite people... but there are still morons out there. Sounded like you had a moron. :(
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Postby Worldie » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:34 am

Don't forget the base rule:

Gear != Skill

Expecially considering how easy Karazhan is nowadays, a full epic healer can still be a complete idiot :)
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Postby kywirelessguy » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:27 am

I took a druid healer with me the last time we went to Heroic SV. We wiped on the very first bog lord cause he was afk and I'm an impatient son of a bitch, but after that it was just like on normal mode. AOE everything except for a seduce here or there for the 2 siren packs.

I would put heroic SV in the same class as Mech and UB. Super easy. I'd say its easier than heroic Shattered too, just based on the two headed boss being a bastard. Its just those very first 2 bog lords that can give you problems. They hit like trucks and have an aura that does 700-900 nature damage.

Try taking a hunter and have him pop nature resist, might help out a bit. Your healer can also stand around the corner near the entrance and still have LOS on you but not on the bog lord so at least he isn't getting hit with anything. I always tell the healer in my groups to keep me alive first and worry about dps last.
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Postby Igrado » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:06 am

for Bog Lords, he should be using HL for max Healing/sec, (not FOL which is for max Healing/mana.) Melee should back out and bandage if the healer does not have HOTs or group heals.,(i.e. Paladin) and the tank should always be the last one to die, not the first.

Unfortunately, there's not much way to fix your healer if he's not a guildie. Don't take him again. (Getting more HP would help you too, but I'm sure you're working on that... we all are, always.)
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Postby Grimmal » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:06 am

I haven't done Heroic SV with my Holy Paladin, but a few things that stood out to me here.

- The Paladin imo should have given a heads up to the rogue about healing, and then let it go at that. I'm not saying let him die if you are able to stop it, but the tank gets priority on heals with the only exception is if I were to get low enough to be in danger.

- 1300 +heal and +15% spellcrit really isn't that great for a Holy Paladin imo in some heroics. I have about 1360 or so and sit closer to about 25% crit if I recall on mine, and I feel that I'm not geared enough for many heroics. It's a VERY stressful thing for a Holy Paladin to keep up a group while something is AEing, and again alot of times you have to make some hard choices.

- The guy sounded like a ass from what you say, but then again you were a bit frustrated I'm sure which might have spurred it. In general though healers have a very frustrating job and I'm surprised that so many of us have such good attitudes. There are always some bad apples though.

- Rogues almost as a whole in my pugging experience suck. None of them know what the frontal arc is and all want to be in it swinging away. Even one of my best friends who has a Rogue alt does everything wrong even though I have repeatedly asked him to stop. The last time he was taking to much damage I sent a tell to our healer and actually asked that they stop healing him in hopes that a death would straighten him up. It did.

Just relax, bad groups happen and getting this excited about it doesn't change anything. Just mark down the names of the ones who weren't that great, and learn your lesson.
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Postby Sparti » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:47 pm

I actually didn't say anything to egg it on. The hunter in our group was wondering why we were having trouble and I responded "I really don't know, we seem to be at the right gear level for this." Then the Paladin launched into a tirade about how I was horribly undergeared and that I was a bad tank, and also my fiance (a moonkin who pulls about 600-700 dps on average in 5 mans) was terrible because of the simple fact that she was a moonkin. Said paladin basically spent ten minutes ripping us apart with completely logic-defying arguments. I don't know what his/her probalem was.
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Postby Stylaan » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:04 pm

Paladins and Druids make the worst Heroic healers when the group is at a gear level where the content is still challenging.
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Postby Grimmal » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:26 pm

Well from his comment about Moonkins I can only say this.

He is a idiot. Any Holy Paladin who has a problem grouping with them must not enjoy critting in the least. As far as being Holy and saying that, it's almost like any Prot or Holy Paladin complaining about Shadow Priests...
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Postby Exodius » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:07 am

I have some kind of good news for you then...

I tanked heroic Steam Vaults for the first time yesterday. I was in my normal running group so we all new each others styles and strategies. The healer was a priest.

The lag was really bad that night though. Normally I have around 400-600ms, 200 if it's good, 800 if it's bad. I'm Australian, you get use to those numbers though. :?

Anyway, the lag was really fierce that night. 1000ms was normal and 2000ms was pretty common too. :(

The Australian warlock kept getting disconnected mid fight, it was that bad. I don't know how I managed to stay logged on, to be honest. :shock:

Despite all that lag, we one shotted every boss in there. We just died on the trash when I could not see aggro shift fast enough.

So I reckon that could suggest healer troubles to me, rather than tank issues. :wink:
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