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Hit Chance and Reflective Aggro Generation

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Hit Chance and Reflective Aggro Generation

Postby Xariann » Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:55 am

After reading a few posts in this forum (I have tons to read through still since I just found it...) I realized that Blessing of Sanctuary isn't such a great threat generator, as well as not such a great mitigation blessing (though I never considered it such, but I often used it because of the threat I thought it was generating).

Then I read that both Holy Shield and Blessing of Sanc loose value in terms of threat as the Paladin becomes better geared (I am still trying to understand why since if a Paladin is better geared, he will wind up blocking more, so I suppose Holy Shield and BoSanc will proc more). Unless "better geared" means less block, I am not sure I understand it. I know that once you fill up the mob's the attack table with attacks that are not crushing blows (for bosses) it's useless to raise block rating as it's the first skill that gets pushed out. But still, let's say you reach 70% block or something, you still block 70%, so why are Holy Shield and BoSanc useless in terms of threat?

So anyhow, I tanked without using BoSanc and using Kings (which is something I started to do since a few days, since mitigation wise I am OK for the content I am tanking, even though I am not super, but I miss stamina really, I am crit immune and I have tanked only heroics so far, so I don't need to be CB, I just need to have enough stamina so that the healer can keep me up, considering the rest of my stats). I took talent points off "precision" as I read somewhere here 3% hit is not worth it.

However I have noticed my stuns get resisted more, I miss more, and my Righteous Defense was resisted a few times too. If BoSanc and Holy Shield generate negligible aggro, then way throwing away hit too? A missed Judgement means 16 seconds (with improved judgement) wihout generating much aggro, since Paladins' main aggro source is holy spells and not physical spells.

I also have 1 handed spec and 5 points in Reckoning, but I seem to understand maxed Reckoning has some side effects? Can you point me to the thread that talks about them, please?

Thanks in advance.
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Postby kalbear » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:06 pm

Then I read that both Holy Shield and Blessing of Sanc loose value in terms of threat as the Paladin becomes better geared (I am still trying to understand why since if a Paladin is better geared, he will wind up blocking more, so I suppose Holy Shield and BoSanc will proc more).


That's where you're wrong. As you become better geared you're going to get more dodge, parry, and miss. All of these things push blocking off the hit table - so the more dodge, parry and miss you have, the less you'll block. In other words, if you are actively uncrushable and have 40% dodge, parry and miss you will block 62.4% of the time. If you have 50% dodge, parry and miss you will block 52.4% of the time.

In addition to this, holy shield scales very poorly with spelldamage compared to your other threat sources, so while it's going to be doing the same amount of damage it won't be as big of a source of damage on a percentage basis as consecrate & seals will be.

I find precision to be a great talent. There's not much better than it. What are you taking instead of precision?
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Postby Xariann » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:08 pm

That's where you're wrong. As you become better geared you're going to get more dodge, parry, and miss. All of these things push blocking off the hit table - so the more dodge, parry and miss you have, the less you'll block. In other words, if you are actively uncrushable and have 40% dodge, parry and miss you will block 62.4% of the time. If you have 50% dodge, parry and miss you will block 52.4% of the time.


But that's the thing. Why are you taking more dodge and parry instead of more block? Because Holy Shield doesn't scale well? I'd understand that, if that's what you mean.

Like I said, I was taking reckoning and one handed spec instead of precision. But I feel my threat isn't as good as it was and I am missing too much, so I am going to take precision again, instead of probably reckoning.

And what are the negative effects of reckoning? Some people said it had some.
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Postby kalbear » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:23 pm


But that's the thing. Why are you taking more dodge and parry instead of more block? Because Holy Shield doesn't scale well? I'd understand that, if that's what you mean.
For starters, because it's better. Also, the gear just has more of it as you progress.

A dodge or a parry means no damage. A block means that you've reduced damage by your block value. Dodge and parry are generally better. Yes, a blocked attack is one that didn't crush, and yes, you should attempt to take some damage at all times - but dodge and parry and miss help not take too much damage at any given time.

It's nothing to do with holy shield, really; it's to do with being a good tank, and a good tank has a good balance of mitigation, stamina and avoidance.

You can take reckoning, 1hws and precision. If you take reckoning you pretty much must take precision to maximize its usefulness. If you need to spec out of something, remove spell warding or improved judgment. The primary negative effect of reckoning is that it makes it more likely that you will be parried by the mob, which will speed up the mob's attack. That can lead to taking more damage in a shorter period of time and can result in your death. That being said, even with reckoning parry gibs are very uncommon for paladins due to their mechanics of threat. They're mostly a concern for warriors and druids, who have the vast majority of their threat-generating attacks be melee attacks.
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Postby Klistel » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:23 pm

reckoning = parries. There is zero expertise on paladin gear. Parries = bad.

And I personally take more dodge/parry instead of more block because taking zero damage is preferable to taking 6k minutes 500-600
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Postby kalbear » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:33 pm

reckoning = parries. There is zero expertise on paladin gear. Parries = bad.


You have 5 expertise skill (about 20 expertise rating) innately from talents. You also can get expertise on gear without a problem; the brooch of deftness and the bracers of ancient phalanx are both excellent. If you don't want to use them, fine, but expertise is about equivalent to spell damage on a per-point basis for threat, and expertise helps with parry streaks.

Parries are bad, don't get me wrong. So is losing aggro to DPS or failing to beat a boss's enrage timer.
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Postby Xariann » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:57 pm

OK, so here's another question.

Why is Parry bad? I was told it resets the weapon swing, so it can help with threat, thing that dodge doesn't do.
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Postby Klistel » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:06 pm

Xariann wrote:OK, so here's another question.

Why is Parry bad? I was told it resets the weapon swing, so it can help with threat, thing that dodge doesn't do.


Mob hits you for 6k
Mob parries you, Mob hits you for another 6k in the span of about half a second.
Mob parries you again, Mob hits you again for 6k

You've just taken 18k damage in under 3 seconds
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Postby Xariann » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:14 pm

OK, let me understand this.

Reckoning is bad because the mob parries me? So with reckoning I basically give the mobs more chances to hit me, as after he parries, he will surely hit me? Is that the problem?
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Postby Xariann » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:25 pm

Actually I think I got it.

Parry resets my weapon swing. So would it reset the boss' weapon swing. So while I still have my avoidance and still block, parry or dodge the same % of attacks, the boss will attack me much faster in a shorter period of time, so I will wind up taking more damage because he's attacked me 15 times instead of 10 in the same time span, so I took more blows in the same amount of time (even though the % I block, parry or dodge is the same).

I get the reference to expertise rating too now.

P.S.: I realised I missed Kael's second reply to my question, which said exactly what I just said.
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Postby Everlight » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:31 pm

When YOU parry, you get your weapon swing timer sped up.

When HE parries, he gets HIS weapon swing timer sped up.

Reckoning causes YOU to attack more. This provides more opportunities for HIM to parry. Ergo, it provides more opportunities for his swing timer to be sped up. This means he hits you more.

The effect is small though, don't expect to see Reckoning proc and the Finger of God to squash you Monty-Python style every time. But it can happen.
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Postby Xariann » Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:29 am

Yep, thanks, I understood.

I missed a reply for some reason so I was getting confused :)

I don't think I'd ever got a proper reply if I posted something like this in the official WOW forum. This forum rocks. I have learnt more from here in 2 days, then from the WOW forums in ages.
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Postby Lakirby » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:48 am

Everlight wrote:The effect is small though, don't expect to see Reckoning proc and the Finger of God to squash you Monty-Python style every time. But it can happen.

This is possibly the funniest mental image I've had all day.
<Shadows of Eternity> - Kilrogg EU - 5/5 MH 9/9 BT
Retiring 11/07/08 - Tanking to the bitter end.
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Postby xyzor » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:50 pm

People make FAR too big a deal about the "Parry gib". It just barely happens, from my experience. The only progression fight where I ever even bothered thinking about it was Phase 2 on Prince back when we first started doing Kara. I used the 'disengage' method to avoid the parry gib. Other than that, I have never noticed it again. It is certainly not something you should really consider as a make-or-break factor in talent or gear choices...
Image
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Postby Aloette » Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:28 pm

Klistel wrote:
Xariann wrote:OK, so here's another question.

Why is Parry bad? I was told it resets the weapon swing, so it can help with threat, thing that dodge doesn't do.


Mob hits you for 6k
Mob parries you, Mob hits you for another 6k in the span of about half a second.
Mob parries you again, Mob hits you again for 6k

You've just taken 18k damage in under 3 seconds


That's such an exageration it's not even funny.

Swing timers are reduced by 50% of the remaining time at the time of the parry. For the first two events to happen the mob would have to hit for 6k every 1 second, and assume the mob parried your attack immediatley after his attack. I don't know of any mob that hits that hard with a 1s swing timer. Also, when you consider that 99% of parries will occur at some point in the middle of the swing cycle, the amount of time reduced off the next attack will never be 50% of the full swing timer.

Secondly, getting two parries back-to-back is incredibly rare. Assuming the boss has a 15% parry chance, there's only a 2.25% chance of two parries happening back to back, and that's not factoring in misses/dodges. Finally, as alliance, parries are even less of a problem as you can use the 'disengage method' since SoV will continue to generate threat even without autoattacks.

Parry gibs are a non-factor in my books, and personally basing gear and talent specs on them is silly.
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