44/17?

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44/17?

Postby RighteousTank » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:48 am

Please dont flame me if you think this specc is worse than wiping at Hogger, I've only been a tankadin for a few weeks and tried to make my own kind of specc.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000


I think it works well.
I've got balls of steel.
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Postby kalbear » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:52 am

Okay. Defend why you think that guardian's favor and improved concentration aura (and when are you using that?) are better than 5% more damage from everything.
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Postby RighteousTank » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:55 am

kalbear wrote:Okay. Defend why you think that guardian's favor and improved concentration aura (and when are you using that?) are better than 5% more damage from everything.


that improved concentration aura was a misclick :P typed in my specc to fast, I've edited it to precision now.

Guardian's favour is great, because then you have 2 taunts at your hand much more often, becacuse it happens sometimes that I loose aggro on a mob, and if righteous fury is on CD I can just use my bop macro
I've got balls of steel.
RighteousTank
 
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Postby kalbear » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:03 am

Guardian's favour is great, because then you have 2 taunts at your hand much more often, becacuse it happens sometimes that I loose aggro on a mob, and if righteous fury is on CD I can just use my bop macro


Yes, but you can already use BoP in that case. This means that every 3 minutes (instead of every 5) you can taunt twice in a 15-second time.

I question the necessity of having two taunts every 3 minutes that you need to use in a 15-second window.

Also, if you're going to go for threat, improved judgment is not as good for damage/threat as 1hws is, point for point.
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Postby RighteousTank » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:07 am

kalbear wrote:
Guardian's favour is great, because then you have 2 taunts at your hand much more often, becacuse it happens sometimes that I loose aggro on a mob, and if righteous fury is on CD I can just use my bop macro


Yes, but you can already use BoP in that case. This means that every 3 minutes (instead of every 5) you can taunt twice in a 15-second time.

I question the necessity of having two taunts every 3 minutes that you need to use in a 15-second window.

Also, if you're going to go for threat, improved judgment is not as good for damage/threat as 1hws is, point for point.


At my current gear state, when pulling several mobs at a time, I do more damage with imp. retri aura than the 5% more damage with Consecration and BoS. AoE-wise
I've got balls of steel.
RighteousTank
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:40 am

Postby Refute » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:08 am

My 2 cents are this:

Most people here will tell you that you must have at least these talents:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

This is also the cookie cutter spec:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000
Refute
 
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Postby Refute » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:11 am

RighteousTank wrote:
kalbear wrote:
Guardian's favour is great, because then you have 2 taunts at your hand much more often, becacuse it happens sometimes that I loose aggro on a mob, and if righteous fury is on CD I can just use my bop macro


Yes, but you can already use BoP in that case. This means that every 3 minutes (instead of every 5) you can taunt twice in a 15-second time.

I question the necessity of having two taunts every 3 minutes that you need to use in a 15-second window.

Also, if you're going to go for threat, improved judgment is not as good for damage/threat as 1hws is, point for point.


At my current gear state, when pulling several mobs at a time, I do more damage with imp. retri aura than the 5% more damage with Consecration and BoS. AoE-wise


The problem is that the Prot tree is a very, very bloated tree. Meaning, that we must use the vast majority of our points on particular talents to be able to be top notch tanks.
Refute
 
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Postby kalbear » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:32 am

At my current gear state, when pulling several mobs at a time, I do more damage with imp. retri aura than the 5% more damage with Consecration and BoS. AoE-wise


I'm not even sure what your spec actually is any more.

When pulling several mobs at a time improved JUDGMENT does not do as much damage as having 1hws and consecration. That was what I stated before, and it is what is true now. Furthermore, 1hws increases damage from:

consecration
blessing of sanctuary
retribution aura

But let's go through the math on retribution aura and see what we're talking about.

Retribution aura (base) does 26 damage. That's the base, and you get that regardless of whatever else you do.

With two points in improved retribution aura, you do an extra 13 damage per hit that does damage to you. What would it take for 1hws to do that level of damage?

Retribution aura with 1hws does an extra 1.3 damage. So comparing the two, you're only getting 11.7 more damage regardless. Okay.

Consecration (base) does 512 damage over 8 seconds. 1hws improves that by 25 damage. That doesn't include any spelldamage, mind you. But you say that a mob could hit you more than once in 8 seconds! True. They could even hit you 4 times. So we'll take that into account - the damage we need to make up is 11.7*4 - 25 = 23 per mob. What else do we have?

A normal weapon swing will do about 100 damage. You do that 4 times as well, and you get 5 damage per swing. That's 20 damage, right there. Seal of righteousness does about 130 DPS. Again, we'll add 5% to that, but this time we'll do it per second, so we're getting 6.5DPS, or 6.5*8=52 more damage over 8 seconds. So we have 72 damage applied to one mob in 8 seconds. Judging righteousness does another 200-220 damage over 8 seconds, and that's another 5% bonus, so we have 11 damage over 8 seconds more. 83 damage more to an existing mob.

So so far, as long as we're fighting 4 mobs or less, 1hws does more damage.

Blessing of sanctuary does 46 damage (again, without any spelldamage). 1hws increases this by 2.3. This doesn't overlap perfectly with the hits you take from retribution (it's only when you block) but it's something. Similarly, holy shield does 185 damage over that period for each block, and there are 8 charges. You'll be doing 185*8*.05=74 damage, plus another 2.3 damage per block there too, so 16 more damage for a total of 90 more damage in an 8-second window. Now we need to be fighting at least 10 mobs before improved retribution aura does more damage than 1hws.

Now, all of this doesn't take into account a bunch of things:
mobs don't always hit you. The above model assumes that a mob hits you 4 times in 8 seconds, but we all know that's wrong.
no spelldamage. If you add spelldamage you'll increase consecration's damage a ton, for instance; basically every point of spelldamage adds directly to the damage from consecration at a 1-1 basis. Which means every point of spelldamage adds 105% more damage, just from consecrate.
more blocks from bosanc. The above only assumes damage when you block from a holy shield proc - but redoubt procs all the time too, and you tend to have a 25% block rate as a base.

Anyway, as you get more spelldamage the disparity only increases. Get 150 spelldamage and you're going to have to take on 16 mobs before retribution aura is better - and that's just factoring in from consecrate, not seal of righteousness or judgments or holy shield (it turns out to be closer to 20 mobs). Get 300 spelldamage and you're having to take on 35 mobs. Get 400 and you're taking on 45.

Add to this that you're working hard to do your best on trash mobs that you can kill easily anyway, and it just isn't worth it.
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Postby RighteousTank » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:48 am

kalbear wrote:
At my current gear state, when pulling several mobs at a time, I do more damage with imp. retri aura than the 5% more damage with Consecration and BoS. AoE-wise


I'm not even sure what your spec actually is any more.

When pulling several mobs at a time improved JUDGMENT does not do as much damage as having 1hws and consecration. That was what I stated before, and it is what is true now. Furthermore, 1hws increases damage from:

consecration
blessing of sanctuary
retribution aura

But let's go through the math on retribution aura and see what we're talking about.

Retribution aura (base) does 26 damage. That's the base, and you get that regardless of whatever else you do.

With two points in improved retribution aura, you do an extra 13 damage per hit that does damage to you. What would it take for 1hws to do that level of damage?

Retribution aura with 1hws does an extra 1.3 damage. So comparing the two, you're only getting 11.7 more damage regardless. Okay.

Consecration (base) does 512 damage over 8 seconds. 1hws improves that by 25 damage. That doesn't include any spelldamage, mind you. But you say that a mob could hit you more than once in 8 seconds! True. They could even hit you 4 times. So we'll take that into account - the damage we need to make up is 11.7*4 - 25 = 23 per mob. What else do we have?

A normal weapon swing will do about 100 damage. You do that 4 times as well, and you get 5 damage per swing. That's 20 damage, right there. Seal of righteousness does about 130 DPS. Again, we'll add 5% to that, but this time we'll do it per second, so we're getting 6.5DPS, or 6.5*8=52 more damage over 8 seconds. So we have 72 damage applied to one mob in 8 seconds. Judging righteousness does another 200-220 damage over 8 seconds, and that's another 5% bonus, so we have 11 damage over 8 seconds more. 83 damage more to an existing mob.

So so far, as long as we're fighting 4 mobs or less, 1hws does more damage.

Blessing of sanctuary does 46 damage (again, without any spelldamage). 1hws increases this by 2.3. This doesn't overlap perfectly with the hits you take from retribution (it's only when you block) but it's something. Similarly, holy shield does 185 damage over that period for each block, and there are 8 charges. You'll be doing 185*8*.05=74 damage, plus another 2.3 damage per block there too, so 16 more damage for a total of 90 more damage in an 8-second window. Now we need to be fighting at least 10 mobs before improved retribution aura does more damage than 1hws.

Now, all of this doesn't take into account a bunch of things:
mobs don't always hit you. The above model assumes that a mob hits you 4 times in 8 seconds, but we all know that's wrong.
no spelldamage. If you add spelldamage you'll increase consecration's damage a ton, for instance; basically every point of spelldamage adds directly to the damage from consecration at a 1-1 basis. Which means every point of spelldamage adds 105% more damage, just from consecrate.
more blocks from bosanc. The above only assumes damage when you block from a holy shield proc - but redoubt procs all the time too, and you tend to have a 25% block rate as a base.

Anyway, as you get more spelldamage the disparity only increases. Get 150 spelldamage and you're going to have to take on 16 mobs before retribution aura is better - and that's just factoring in from consecrate, not seal of righteousness or judgments or holy shield (it turns out to be closer to 20 mobs). Get 300 spelldamage and you're having to take on 35 mobs. Get 400 and you're taking on 45.

Add to this that you're working hard to do your best on trash mobs that you can kill easily anyway, and it just isn't worth it.


Thanks Kalbear, I was hoping for a reply like this. I shall now respecc, ding one level and start gearing up :D
I've got balls of steel.
RighteousTank
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:40 am


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