Spec Theory: 0/38/23

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Spec Theory: 0/38/23

Postby Lore » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:59 pm

Someone on the Paladin forums mentioned this build earlier and it got me thinking: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qZVGtIx0dgzZVfx0bczb

Basically, compared to the standard 0/49/12 spec, you lose:
-Avenger's Shield
-1h Spec
-Ardent Defender

but you gain:
-Sanctity Aura
-Improved Sanctity Aura
-Improved Seal of the Crusader
-Pursuit of Justice
-Crusade

Considering that there really isn't any mitigation given up outside of Ardent Defender (which in its current state I haven't found to be super useful), and Sanctity Aura more than makes up for the threat loss from 1h spec, the question really seems to be "How important is Avenger's Shield?" And is it worth the 6% increased healing from Sanc Aura?

I'm thinking I might try this out tonight in Karazhan and see how it goes, but I'd love some input.
Last edited by Lore on Wed May 16, 2007 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Aergis » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:15 pm

You also lose devo aura while using sanc. I haven't done the math, so I'm not sure which is better, but I'd be curious to know the answer if anyone wants to crunch some numbers.
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Postby Lore » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:24 pm

Well, in theory, the 6% additional healing would more than make up for the DR you get from Devotion Aura. According to the values from my character sheet I only get 1.6% additional DR with Devotion Aura up. That's against level 70 attackers as well, it would obviously be less against 73 bosses. I don't have Imp Devo.

There's also the facet that the extra healing from Imp. Sanctity Aura doesn't care what type of damage I'm taking, where as Devotion Aura only applies to physical damage.

Also, if I understand how armor works correctly, I believe that as your total armor value rises, you get less benefit out of additional armor. That would imply that Devotion Aura becomes less effective as you gear up, whereas Imp. Sanc Aura would become more effective as your healers gear up.
Last edited by Lore on Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Endure » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:25 pm

Argent Defender is useful, you just don't notice it at times because you don't have any flashing lights or large numbers appearing over your head.

The big push for a build like that is more selfish than anything. Devo will help more than 6% healing. After all, if you take 10,000 damage, and have 10,000 life, what would help you more? Devo or Imp. Sanc?

Also, in every encounter I've found it better to use Devo, Ret, or a Resist aura.

That build is a fine off-tank build. But nothing it gives you helps a tank in any way.
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Postby Aergis » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:35 pm

Good point. Also look at Ardent Defender vs. Imp sanc

Debatable, and really would depend more on your current gear, what you're tanking, and what you're having a problem with. Currently I'd stick with AD as I still aoe tank alot and it's pretty useful there. I have also noticed more times where AD has saved my life than not, even on single target bosses. We don't have a set group of healers, and several are new to priest, and there's simply times where I don't get healed. For me AD is too valuable, as well as any on-use items like Moroe's Pocketwatch.

As for Avenger's Shield, most DPS has gotten used to me pulling with it. The only time I seem to lose threat is when I go to pull with AS while the mob is pathing towards me, and he rushes and gets too close for AS to finish casting. Then I am left with a quick JoR, consecrate, and the rogue has already pulled agro since he's gotten used to the extra 1.4k ish threat on me from AS. Though, that would be a easy fix, simply stating "I don't have AS anymore, so remember to do less than 2k damage in the first seconds."
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Postby Lore » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:38 pm

Endure wrote:Argent Defender is useful, you just don't notice it at times because you don't have any flashing lights or large numbers appearing over your head.

The big push for a build like that is more selfish than anything. Devo will help more than 6% healing. After all, if you take 10,000 damage, and have 10,000 life, what would help you more? Devo or Imp. Sanc?

Also, in every encounter I've found it better to use Devo, Ret, or a Resist aura.

That build is a fine off-tank build. But nothing it gives you helps a tank in any way.


Agreed that Ardent Defender does have its uses (I find it particularly nice when tanking Romulo or Moroes as I take almost no damage from them when my health dips below 20%). The reason I say I don't find it super useful is that, even if you consider a tank with 18k health, and optimal conditions for AD (hit at 19%), a 7.2k hit will kill you. I don't have any personal tanking experience beyond Karazhan and Maulgar, but what I've heard has said hits that large aren't too uncommon. You would know better than I :P

Also, please be aware that I could care less what kind of DPS I'm putting out. I don't do anything solo (I have alts for that). Not that it particularly matters, just wanted you to know I'm not trying to "justify" putting points into Ret so I can crank out teh sik deepz :P

I'd also make the observation that if someone is tanking something that could hit them for even 8k non-crushing non-crit and only has 10k hit points, the issue is probably not limited to the aura they're using ;)

EDIT: God, I use a lot of smileys.
Last edited by Lore on Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kathryn » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:39 pm

The way i looked at it is that, they can always put a imp sanc aura pally in my group when i tank because there is no way i'll give up prot point to go get it too deep in ret tree...
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Postby Endure » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:42 pm

Oh, and another bonus for AS - I use it on a number of boss encounter during the fight. It's great for getting adds as they come in and establishing aggro before they reach me. I imagine that as I continue further in, I'll find more uses for the aggro that it can generate for me from range, even in the middle of combat.
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Postby Lore » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:44 pm

Hmm, okay. I'm sticking with 0/44/12. You're probably right, I'd miss AS way too much. Started thinking about it and I use it a lot more than I thought I did.

Thanks for the input =)
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:17 pm

Digging up an old thread, but I think there's still something to be said on this topic. In my opinion, a proper 0/38/23 spec includes AD:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=qZV0tIx0dgzxZVfg00czb

This build has all the mitigation of 0/49/12 plus Imp Sanc Aura, so it's strictly better from a mitigation stand point. Your tradeoffs are:

0/49/12:
-Avenger's Shield
-Guardian's Favor
-Precision
-1H spec

0/38/23:
-Imp Sanc Aura
-Crusade
-Imp SotC
-2/3 Vindication

From a threat perspective, Precision ~= Crusade and 1H spec ~= Imp Sanc Aura.

Imp SotC and Vindication are primarily fillers, so you're mainly comparing GF and AS against the healing from Imp Sanc Aura. A 6% healing boost for all your tanks is a big deal and not something to be passed up lightly. From an efficiency standpoint blows away Dev Aura...the only way in which Dev Aura is superior is against a blow which would have killed you without it, and that's a blow that would leave you with <300 health, a very rare thing in raids.

The main consideration imo is AS. Endure's stated that it's very useful in SSC. If this is the case, 0/49/12 might be the way to go. I find myslef using AS less often in heroics these days, however, and I haven't seen any need for it in Karazhan (I can generate equivalent threat on a single target in 3-4 seconds, not a lot to ask dps to wait for), so I'm likely to switch over to this spec pretty soon. Of course, if you can convince one of your healing Paladins to go 38/0/23 that's even better -- you get the best of both worlds :-)
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Postby Dreamcrusher » Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:26 pm

Dorvan wrote: Of course, if you can convince one of your healing Paladins to go 38/0/23 that's even better -- you get the best of both worlds :-)


That's what I've done. :)
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Postby Lore » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:29 pm

Hmm, interesting.

I do continue to find AS very useful (especially once you get out of Karazhan and can't rely on Exorcism as a ranged pull anymore), but this might have merit as well.
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Postby Thels » Wed May 16, 2007 3:22 am

The 0/38/23 build posted here happens to be exactly mine.

I'm under the impression talents should be sorted for the situations in which they're most important. Yes, it's nice to have AD for trash AoE packs, but those can be handled anyhow. The question is, is AD useful for those important boss fights.

IMHO, it's not. There's quite a decent chance that you get oneshot from above the 20% mark, and even if you're below the 20%, then 50% damage reduction is still going to get you oneshot in most cases.

The other thing you're giving up is Avenger's Shield. I miss it sometimes. It's really nice for initial aggro and for pulling. The Decapatator is something that could be used for pulling instead. Just write a macro to use it and then equip your regular weapon. Can't be used in fight of course, since there's a 30 second cooldown on it.

However, most of the times, there's a hunter available, and Misdirection gets the job done.

This is all Pre-2.1 though. Post 2.1, the 6% healing bonus no longer warrants not using Devotion. If only Retridins were viable in raids. They could keep up JotC and Sanctity for us :/

I have no idea if I'm going 0/38/23, 0/40/21, 0/43/18 or 0/49/12 after the patch :S
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Re: Spec Theory: 0/38/23

Postby Coldaan » Wed May 16, 2007 4:13 am

Lore wrote:Basically, compared to the standard 0/44/12 spec, you lose:
-Avenger's Shield
-1h Spec
-Ardent Defender

but you gain:
-Sanctity Aura
-Improved Sanctity Aura
-Improved Seal of the Crusader
-Pursuit of Justice
-Crusade



1) I won't specc out of my wonderful captain america shield ever again. it's just too good.^^
2) Ardent Defender might have saved my life several times, but it is hard to notice in the middle of a fight. Maybe I will notice its impact more often in 2.1
3) the stuff you gain is probably helping you with the aggro, but I don't need more aggro. I need more armor, health, def-stats etc. For me, that's all that matters atm, I've never had any trouble holding aggro.
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Re: Spec Theory: 0/38/23

Postby Thels » Wed May 16, 2007 4:32 am

Coldaan wrote:3) the stuff you gain is probably helping you with the aggro, but I don't need more aggro. I need more armor, health, def-stats etc. For me, that's all that matters atm, I've never had any trouble holding aggro.


Getting more aggro from talents, allows you to get away with less aggro from gear, so you can itemize for more avoidance gear.
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