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Tankadin core talent spec

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Postby Rykis » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:37 pm

Lore wrote:Wow, I fail at noticing threads.

I wouldn't call Deflection and Anticipation "required", I drop points from one or the other (usually deflection since defense can be rough) frequently depending on what I'm doing.


Lore, you gear is so much better than mine I think you could kill me w/ the (0/0/0) spec :)

Seriously though, I think this post is pretty good for helping tanks get a feel for what they need and and little bit of the why.
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Postby Fedaykin98 » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:46 pm

kalbear wrote:
That's more of a threat talent, than a tanking talent.

And yeah, I do consider 1hws a core talent. There are two other talent in the whole set of trees that provides more overall threat per point than 1hws does: holy shield and sanctity aura. Sanctity aura isn't worth the other things you have to give up. Reckoning provides about the same amount of threat that 1hws does on single targets and increases parry gibs, imp sor is less and requires useless talents to get, imp judgment provides less and screws up the cycle, etc. Plus it helps get to the tier 8 & 9 talents given where it is in the tree. If you don't take 1hws, you have to take something like spell warding or reckoning to make up for it.

Avenger's shield is a 'threat' talent too. But I'd still recommend it as a core tanking talent. Tanking isn't only about mitigating damage. That's the most important ability, but it's not the only one.


Totally agree - threat talents *are* tanking talents, and I think that can best be illustrated by this completely terrifying and hilarious quote from a guy who was OT in Kara for me one time: "I tanked him pretty good, I just couldn't hold threat."

Wow...that IS good tanking! :lol:

EDIT: Yes, I just totally necro'd that line of conversation because I wanted to share what I thought was a priceless gem. Out of the mouths of DPS Warriors, ladies and gents...
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Postby Wyleai » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:39 am

redlenses wrote:Great Post, the only thing I would change is I would put Avenger's Shield in the optional category. An engineer pally can pull with other means and without blowing mana.

I have Avenger's Shield and love it, but I *could* live without it and be a good tank.


Avenger's Shield isn't just a pull, it is a massive loading of threat. In PUGlies I've even used it in mid fight to steal back threat from an over-eager DPSer or puller (our taunt after all, is often followed by the mob jumping right back to the target we taunted off of, unless we can drop that person's threat and raise our own in the span of time it lasts). It takes a lot for someone else to over-threat Avenger's Shield.

After level 50, if a tankadin isn't pulling with Avenger's Shield, I don't want to be in their PUG on any of my toons. Wait till after you hit 50 to start putting points in other specs.

Having a resto Druid, I know what it's like to be almost always number 2 on the threat table but unable to survive aggro for more than a fraction of a second. It took me a long time and a -lot- to talent points to learn how to get myself to number three. Thanks to Omen for giving me data I could watch to learn what worked. Resto Druids just have too much effective healing, and spamming that is lethal.

One reason I really like healing for tankadins is that once they kick off Avenger's Shield I can spam my HoT's like nobody's business and only worry when the mob has a built in 'cheat mode' to ignore the threat table (like those special bosses that have attacks that target number 2 or 3 or random on the table and not the top). By contrast, warrior and druid tanks are usually half dead by the time they have enough threat for me to safely heal them - meaning I often need to open with the big heals, and risk 'spiking up' on the threat table.

Avenger's Shield is not optional. Not if you want one of my healing toons watching your back. 8)
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Ardent Defender

Postby MichaelBerea » Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:00 pm

Overall I love the thread and appreciate the OP’s template. But I know I am a newb at tanking and have a lot to learn, so I would like to ask a question.

Why 5/5 Ardent Defender for Heroics and Karazhan?

Its use is obvious for SSC/TK/BT/MH and probably ZA. But in the KZ/Heroic tanking I have been doing I never drop below 50% unless the healer(s) are dead/disconnected. Even then the dps’ers either die before me or feign death, etc. and my continuing survival tends to annoy everyone rather than leading to a win.

Thanks for the advice.
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Postby Naiddean » Mon May 05, 2008 10:47 pm

A lot of key points in here are targeted. I do appreciate the detail gone into some of these threads, especially this one. I can tell that there has been a lot of effort put into threads like this. I am really going to try to be more of a reader than a talker until I feel like I’ve done enough research. Although I do want to raise a few questions.

My biggest question is concerning One-Handed Weapon Specialization.
I feel like melee damage is as useful and as trying to light your way through a dark tunnel with a melted candle. The only perk in my opinion to One-Handed Weapon Specialization is towards Seal of Blood, which its proc is based on weapon damage. If you’re looking for higher Seal of Blood procs, you’re sacrificing your gears limits to gain strength, obtaining one-handed weapons which have DPS over high spell damage, and other possible limiting factors to your spell damage.

In reality, I think the DPS of a weapon and the damage incurred by your melee attacks is ultimately useless. Don’t need it. That’s why I would choose a spell damage one hand over DPS.

So I would say if you’re going to get One-Handed Weapon Spec, knock that out of the equation and get something like spell warding, and precision. Spell Warding although seems almost futile, but does the 6% damage from Improved Righteous Fury mean nothing at all either? Obviously you get Imp Righteous Fury for the high taunt, but if you get the 6% from that, add that will the Spell damage, there is 10% reduced spell damage. At least for a 5man build, I see strong points in that in Mgt.
My build I chose, which in my opinion is suited mainly for 5-10man runs. There are some things I would switch out for anything 10man+ runs, like getting rid of reckoning and getting precision.

Level 70 Paladin (0/46/15)

Holy (0 points)

None

Protection (46 points)

Redoubt - Rank 5/5
Toughness - Rank 5/5
Blessing of Kings - Rank 1/1
Improved Righteous Fury - Rank 3/3
Shield Specialization - Rank 3/3
Anticipation - Rank 5/5
Spell Warding - Rank 2/2
Blessing of Sanctuary - Rank 1/1
Reckoning - Rank 5/5
Sacred Duty - Rank 2/2
Improved Holy Shield - Rank 2/2
Holy Shield - Rank 1/1
Ardent Defender - Rank 5/5
Combat Expertise - Rank 5/5
Avenger's Shield - Rank 1/1

Retribution (15 points)

Benediction - Rank 5/5
Improved Judgement - Rank 2/2
Deflection - Rank 5/5
Pursuit of Justice - Rank 3/3



I avoided anything that would seem PvP oriented. Things like Stoicism and Imp. Concentration aura I use in my Holy PvP build, and skip in my Holy PvE build which is about 46/15/0, something like that, I keep forgetting the specifics.

Improved Judgment although cannot work with some Paladins due to it is actually too fast, and can even effect their spell rotation. I honestly probably don’t always use that 8 seconds and in the rotation it ends up even being 10. However, I prefer it over improved SotC. Contrary to my 5man belief, that being there will not be other paladins there with it, small detail that can be altered however. Talents are always personal preference. I personally like to use JoR as much as possible to get that holy damage in there, and being able to pop other Judgments slightly faster.

Pursuit of Justice, I think just has those minor perks that I really enjoy. The less damage I take, the better, the more mobile I am, and the more comfortable I feel. More comfort than need, better than melee damage.
After the change to Ardent Defender, I like it a lot. No, you don’t want to be below 35%. But in the 5man situation, it does happen, and it’s an added comfort giving you more room to breath. Plus with that 30% damage reduction, I think of it stacking up with my other percentage reducers.

I really do like to try and get the most mitigation and the best treat increasers as possible. I think most of my damage tank wise is going to have both of those. Which is always an added raid bonus.
Naiddean - Level 70 Human Paladin of Blackhand
Tifany - Level 70 Blood Elf Paladin of Blackhand
Not a Healadin, Ret Fanatic, Or a Tankadin, I'm a Paladin. I do it all.
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Postby Airanna » Tue May 06, 2008 12:37 am

Though it's been covered elsewhere, in response to the above post I have to stress:

One-Handed Weapon Specialization : Increases all damage you deal when a one-handed weapon is equipped by 5%.

All damage. 5% more physical damage per swing (meh), 5% more SoR damage, 5% more JoR damage, 5% more Consecration/Holy Shield/BoSanc/Exorcism/AS....the list goes on. If we have any single must have threat talent, it is One-Handed Weapon Specialization. Heck, I wish it was as strong as the warrior version...they get 10% bonus to everything they do for threat.
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Postby Naiddean » Tue May 06, 2008 9:17 am

I almost want to go back and see if One-Handed Weapon Specialization has been changed. Any time frame between TBC launch and now is a viable time frame for me, as I have been absent for a majority of it.

A lot of my knowledge dates back to pre-tbc when I uesd to play almost every day scince November.

Regardless, you caught me. After reading the spec again I see the wording now. Now I just feel stupid. :(

I just still have this deep old memory that says it was at one time only melee damage, so I probably read it that way.

Edit: My memory does serve me something, doing some reading it did used to be only melee damage was increased, again, my poor reading comprehension and past memories. I'll keep reading, keep learning. Sorry for the mistake.
Naiddean - Level 70 Human Paladin of Blackhand
Tifany - Level 70 Blood Elf Paladin of Blackhand
Not a Healadin, Ret Fanatic, Or a Tankadin, I'm a Paladin. I do it all.
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Postby Oneironaut » Sat May 10, 2008 3:50 pm

Naiddean wrote:I almost want to go back and see if One-Handed Weapon Specialization has been changed. Any time frame between TBC launch and now is a viable time frame for me, as I have been absent for a majority of it.

A lot of my knowledge dates back to pre-tbc when I uesd to play almost every day scince November.

Regardless, you caught me. After reading the spec again I see the wording now. Now I just feel stupid. :(

I just still have this deep old memory that says it was at one time only melee damage, so I probably read it that way.

Edit: My memory does serve me something, doing some reading it did used to be only melee damage was increased, again, my poor reading comprehension and past memories. I'll keep reading, keep learning. Sorry for the mistake.

its a very easy mistake to make; don't get too hard on yourself :wink:
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Toughness 5/5?

Postby Evoluminare » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:46 pm

I have seen some specs on protections paladins that actually go 2/5 on toughness and 3/3 on pursuit of justice.

For example:
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... r&n=Honsus

I understand the extra armor we gain from toughness is vital, but how does that compare to having the spell hit reduction and movement speed?

Someone posted on this thread about how they like the increased run speed and hit reduction...for me, I like the extra run speed when trying to chase down mobs that run away from me (RD on CD). The extra armor would reduce melee hits, but I presume at 70, we`re uncrushable/uncrittable....and we also have some amazing block % (HS and Redoubt), that we shouldn`t worry too much about the 6% armor.

or does this just come down to personal preference? or perhaps what we`re trying to tank?

I`m sure if I said Grull, you would say go toughness, but if I said Kael`Thas, you would say Pursuit.

Thanks for your help guys!
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Postby kalbear » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:07 am

6% armor can be anywhere from a 3% reduction to all physical damage to a 10% reduction to all physical damage relative to where you were. Even at 3% reduction to all physical damage, you are trading:

3% reduction to all physical damage
for
3% avoidance on all spells and minor run speed increase.

A more concrete example. A pre-Kara tankadin will have roughly 12k armor. 6% of that is 720 more armor. That would represent a % change reduction of 1.5%, but a relative change of 4% in damage taken. And that's a pre-Kara tankadin. When you start getting into the higher levels, you get more benefit from it. Toughness is one of the few abilities that scales with gear.

Which do you think you take more damage from, regularly? Which do you think will reduce your overall damage more often?

Now, yes, if you plan on tanking only Kael, never anything else, not Sanguinar, not the adds, not anything in Hyjal or BT...it may be a good idea to swap. But most of the time it is simply the wrong choice. Physical damage is way too prevalent and armor is way too good of a stat.

Why 5/5 Ardent Defender for Heroics and Karazhan?
This came up a while back; I should've addressed it then. My apologies. It's very, very hard to evaluate this by yourself in how well it serves you. I'd recommend one of the addons written by the community to check how much damage it actually prevents, but it is very good for heroics, can be good in Karazhan (especially against certain fights like Prince and Nightbane) and is stellar in ZA. Your experience may vary, in which case great! Take something else. But you should have the knowledge as to why you're removing it, because under normal circumstances it is just That Good.
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Re: Pursuit of justice

Postby Evoluminare » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:42 am

Okay, that`s what I thought.

Since toughness scales, this would mean the healers would be working a bit less later in the game, assuming my gear is up to par with the encounter.

I guess I`ll be going 49/12 as well!

Thanks for the reply ~ you guys are really knowledgeable here!
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Postby ravenseth » Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:38 pm

can we please get a update to this sticky, or remove it altogether since it is no longer relevant?
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Postby æ » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:11 am

kalbear
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