Remove Advertisements

Tankadin core talent spec

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Tankadin core talent spec

Postby kalbear » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:48 am

I've been seeing a lot of 'is this spec viable' threads, and I keep answering the same thing - as long as you have the core talents, you're going to be viable. But what are those?

Here's my list:
Holy (0 points)

None

Protection (43 points)

5/5 Redoubt
5/5 Toughness
3/3 Improved Righteous Fury
3/3 Shield Specialization
5/5 Anticipation
1/1 Blessing of Sanctuary
2/2 Sacred Duty
5/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization
2/2 Improved Holy Shield
1/1 Holy Shield
5/5 Ardent Defender
5/5 Combat Expertise
1/1 Avenger's Shield

Retribution (10 points)

5/5 Benediction
5/5 Deflection

Note a few things here. One is that because of the way the tree works, you must spend 3 points after this:
Protection (22 points)

5/5 Redoubt
5/5 Toughness
3/3 Improved Righteous Fury
3/3 Shield Specialization
5/5 Anticipation
1/1 Blessing of Sanctuary

in order to get to the tier 6 talents. That means you need to spend 3 points in precision, reckoning, spell warding, and/or blessing of kings. This is not true of something like ardent defender, however, and you can in theory skip that and still get to CE/AS without it. We've already got a topic on whether or not you should use AD though, and it's considered enough of a core talent of a prot paladin that I left it in.

That means, in practice, you have 8 points to spend as you want. 3 of which must go into reckoning, precision, BoK or spell warding. The other 5 can go anywhere. And - this is the important point - none of these points will make or break you as a paladin tank. They are not essential. They're good, but they're not so good that you'll miss them or people will look at you funny. That doesn't mean you should go for suboptimal builds with things like stoicism or improved dev aura, but it does mean you have some choices without having to keep asking 'will this work'. If you have the above skills, it will work.

The generic choices that I see that you can use those 8 points on are (in order of my preference, but it's really not that big a difference):
BoK
Precision
Improved Seal of the Crusader
Reckoning
Spell warding
Pursuit of Judgment
Improved judgment
Seal of Command

Personally, I find BoK to be a defining characteristic of paladins, and if you don't take it you should have a very good reason for it. Precision is the best all around threat talent as it also increases your taunt chances as well as upping TPS. Improved SotC is a great raid buff, but is not needed if you have a ret paladin. Reckoning is great for farming and a good threat talent in general, marred slightly by adding more parries. Spell warding mitigates damage against a paladin's toughest foe, but not so much that you can rely on it. Pursuit of judgment avoids spells entirely, but even less reliably. The run speed is nice. Improved judgment is great when not able to AoE tank but is not as good a threat boost as the other skills listed. Seal of Command is okay when not tanking and if you're alliance.

Any other skills you'd recommend? I thought about putting in guardian's favor, but the times when it would be useful are so small that it seems pointless.
Last edited by kalbear on Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kalbear
 
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:11 pm

Postby Dorvan » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:56 am

Well written post, and I think you've done a good job of capturing the essentials. I'm gonna wait a little bit to see how other people respond/if they have suggestions, but this deserves a sticky.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Postby Soltyr » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:04 pm

I'm not sure if we can consider precison a flavor talent anymore.

I mean, b4 the patch it was a simple threat increasing talent.
Now beside the fact it becomes stronger with the spellhit addition, it affects one of the most important tool for a tank: taunt. Let's remember we have the longer c/d for one only odd taunt, so to not miss it vital.

Opinions?
Image
User avatar
Soltyr
 
Posts: 480
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:02 pm

Postby Baelor » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:08 pm

I think kalbear pretty much nailed it.

Soltyr, while I personally nowadays recommend that any protadin worth their salt do a 0/49/12 build with absolutely no flexibility in points spent and enchant Boar's Speed on their boots without fail, it's not absolutely necessary to do so. Being hit capped as a paladin tank is not crucial, especially considering the role in which a prot paladin finds him or herself in most encounters.
I am the light that brings the dawn.
Something Wicked this way comes.
Formerly: Baelor of Runetotem-US (2006-2007) | Cathmor of Malfurion-US (2007-2010)
Follow me on Twitter
User avatar
Baelor
Moderator
 
Posts: 2677
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 10:42 am
Location: New York

Postby kalbear » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:11 pm

I'm not sure if we can consider precison a flavor talent anymore.

I mean, b4 the patch it was a simple threat increasing talent.
Now beside the fact it becomes stronger with the spellhit addition, it affects one of the most important tool for a tank: taunt. Let's remember we have the longer c/d for one only odd taunt, so to not miss it vital.

Opinions?
It's a good skill, but you can get by without it. You can make up for the loss in +hit from gear. But the reality is that 3 points in a skill are not worth it for making taunts happen 3% more often by themselves, and the boost to threat is not as great thanks to the mechanics of threat generation from a paladin. If it were like a warrior, where 3% hit basically equates to 3% more threat, it would be worth it without question. But it isn't.

That being all said, it'd be the last talent I'd drop out of the whole thing, and if you're alliance I would imagine it is basically mandatory to ensure that you keep SoV stacks up.

Put it this way: you can main tank without dying and without massively gimping your gear if you don't have precision. Because that's true, it's not an essential skill. It's very, very close to being one though.

And Dorvan, Baelor -thanks :)
kalbear
 
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:11 pm

Postby redlenses » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:29 pm

Great Post, the only thing I would change is I would put Avenger's Shield in the optional category. An engineer pally can pull with other means and without blowing mana.

I have Avenger's Shield and love it, but I *could* live without it and be a good tank.
redlenses
 
Posts: 91
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:40 pm

Postby kalbear » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:37 pm

I thought about that too, but honestly - it's a 41-point talent for a reason. It gives a totally unique ability, adds a ton of threat, acts as a ranged pull and is a great way to get aggro back without waiting. That isn't true of the rocket launcher; the rocket launcher doesn't actually do that much aggro (the rocket is the thing doing the damage, so the only aggro you're getting is basically from doing a hostile action against a mob and nothing else) and it has a long cooldown and a long cast time.

It's really a defining talent of a prot paladin and in many of the fights is an expected ability to have for use. It doesn't pass my test of 'if someone came up to you and asked you to pug, would they expect you to have X' litmus test. Yeah, you can survive without it and tank without it, but you can do that without CE as well, and I wouldn't recommend not taking that :)
kalbear
 
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:11 pm

Postby Dorvan » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:58 pm

Before CE I could see leaving AS off the essentials list, but since there's 42 points of "required" Prot talents anyway, it'd be foolish not to spend the 1 extra point for AS.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Postby kalbear » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:02 pm

Yeah, that's true too. It's one point to get a good skill that you spent a bunch of time allowing yourself to get anyway. It's hard for me to envision you using that one point in such a way that your gain would outweigh the loss of AS.
kalbear
 
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:11 pm

Postby Invisusira » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:05 pm

Agree 100%, nice post!
User avatar
Invisusira
Moderator
 
Posts: 9021
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: alt-tabbed

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:40 pm

Ok, enough feedback :P

Stickied!
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Postby Rykis » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:43 am

I took the liberty of slapping this into wowhead's talent calculator. I put the 3 points mandatory by the talent trees work into Precision. This is personal preference, but seems to be very accepted.

Here is the build:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZVhxIx0zMgqtV0x

That leaves a fellow tankadin with 5 points to play with. Potentially 8 if they remove the points out of precision and put it in the prots 5th tier or above.
Image
Rykis
 
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:17 am

Postby Menoch » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:39 pm

5/5 One-Handed Weapon Specialization

That's more of a threat talent, than a tanking talent.
Menoch
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:35 pm

Postby Lore » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:57 pm

Wow, I fail at noticing threads.

I wouldn't call Deflection and Anticipation "required", I drop points from one or the other (usually deflection since defense can be rough) frequently depending on what I'm doing.
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Postby kalbear » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:06 pm

As I said in the EJ thread, if you can reasonably drop anticipation (or deflection, or toughness) to gain something else because of your high levels of gear, this sticky is not for you. That means that you have a good handle of what your gear can take, what you can do in an instance and have the gear to balance out shortcomings. This is more of a 'does my random spec stand a chance in Kara'. For that, it's a bit less forgiving. As I said, as long as you have the core talents you're going to be viable. That doesn't mean you're not viable if you don't have them.

That's more of a threat talent, than a tanking talent.

And yeah, I do consider 1hws a core talent. There are two other talent in the whole set of trees that provides more overall threat per point than 1hws does: holy shield and sanctity aura. Sanctity aura isn't worth the other things you have to give up. Reckoning provides about the same amount of threat that 1hws does on single targets and increases parry gibs, imp sor is less and requires useless talents to get, imp judgment provides less and screws up the cycle, etc. Plus it helps get to the tier 8 & 9 talents given where it is in the tree. If you don't take 1hws, you have to take something like spell warding or reckoning to make up for it.

Avenger's shield is a 'threat' talent too. But I'd still recommend it as a core tanking talent. Tanking isn't only about mitigating damage. That's the most important ability, but it's not the only one.
kalbear
 
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:11 pm

Next

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Worldie and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Worldie and 1 guest