6.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:23 pm

No idea if they adressed it, but it still works on live and beta.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:26 pm

It's been acknowledged as a bug, but it hasn't been fixed yet on either live or beta.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Schroom » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:15 pm

there has been a hotfix about 2 hours ago. SS is affected by it. if you buff it you only get the first absorb shield after the first 6 seconds. So infact the first tick is gone. fix or bug?

fact is I don't like it at all!
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby daishan » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:22 pm

Schroom wrote:there has been a hotfix about 2 hours ago. SS is affected by it. if you buff it you only get the first absorb shield after the first 6 seconds. So infact the first tick is gone. fix or bug?

fact is I don't like it at all!


Intended by the sound of it.

One additional paladin note is that we are moving the initial tick of Sacred Shield to the end. We didn't want players to feel like the right way to play was to constantly cancel and overwrite the bubble.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:30 pm

Thats no fun at all, id rather they increased its CD, I really like to be able to use it effectivly for a burst, its on the GCD anyway so you still have to plan a little bit for it, now its gonna get pretty damn hard to time, not to mention were getting one absorb less out of it every rotation.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:54 pm

Treck wrote:Thats no fun at all, id rather they increased its CD, I really like to be able to use it effectivly for a burst, its on the GCD anyway so you still have to plan a little bit for it, now its gonna get pretty damn hard to time, not to mention were getting one absorb less out of it every rotation.


The flipside is that the old functionality encouraged you to spam SS several GCDs in a row to absorb several consecutive melee hits. Definitely not balanced, nor the intent of the spell. This implementation is flat-out better from a balance perspective.

Also note that we don't lose any ticks at all from this change. We'll get a final one when the buff expires (hence the "we moved it to the end" part).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Schroom » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:00 pm

yeah well the "working as intended" was always that we get one shield every 6 seconds. This stays, we just have to apply SS a tiny bit earlier before the pull and we aren't able to get one more tick we shouldn't. (*whispering*: bad people would call it exploiting. pshhhhh )

I'm about to go to bed now. has anyone checked if SS still stacks? it's pretty nice getting it from your pally healer AND a couple of ret pallys addional to your own ^^
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:04 pm

theckhd wrote:The flipside is that the old functionality encouraged you to spam SS several GCDs in a row to absorb several consecutive melee hits. Definitely not balanced, nor the intent of the spell. This implementation is flat-out better from a balance perspective.

No, that was never doable, it still had its 6sec cooldown when cast.
I do understand this change tho, I think the idea behind SS in the first place was just to generally remove some damage, not as a cooldown for us to use.

theckhd wrote:Also note that we don't lose any ticks at all from this change. We'll get a final one when the buff expires (hence the "we moved it to the end" part).

I just misread it then, makes much more sense.

Schroom wrote:I'm about to go to bed now. has anyone checked if SS still stacks? it's pretty nice getting it from your pally healer AND a couple of ret pallys addional to your own ^^

Yes it still stacks.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Jaitee » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:17 pm

theckhd wrote:
Treck wrote:Thats no fun at all, id rather they increased its CD, I really like to be able to use it effectivly for a burst, its on the GCD anyway so you still have to plan a little bit for it, now its gonna get pretty damn hard to time, not to mention were getting one absorb less out of it every rotation.


The flipside is that the old functionality encouraged you to spam SS several GCDs in a row to absorb several consecutive melee hits. Definitely not balanced, nor the intent of the spell. This implementation is flat-out better from a balance perspective.

Also note that we don't lose any ticks at all from this change. We'll get a final one when the buff expires (hence the "we moved it to the end" part).


we did actually lose a tick when the buff expires it doesnt provide another tick however if we refresh SS before it expires then we dont lose any ticks since when you refresh it it behaves like a hot and extends the duration to 30 seconds + however long till the next tick
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby aresius » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:51 pm

I was thinking a bit on the tier 3 talents (eternal flame vs Sacred shield).
I dont really understand how stats affect healing output so im likely completely off track, but i thought maybe some raidwide buffs and/or stat improvements may make Eternal flame more attractive and were possibly overlooked. For example, if your group has a Spriest/Bdruid/EleShammy wouldent the extra spellhaste, wouldent it grant extra healing ticks to EF's HoT(while not improving SS)?
Although the absorbtion of the sacred shield will likely make it more attractive regardless, i wanted to beleive there could be something that might give the EF a total healing advantage to, at least on a argumentative standpoint, make the T3 talents less pre-determined.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:08 pm

One thing I don't get about sacred shield is how recasting interacts with vengeance. If you cast SS with no vengeance, immediately get a big hit (an impale say) and then cast it again with high vengeance, I understand that you will get a higher shield as the size of the shield scales with vengeance. But when does the size of the shield increase? After 6 seconds? Or after all shields from the first cast would have expired (20+ seconds)? I guess it must be the former, otherwise there'd be a big incentive not to keep SS up.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby daishan » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:18 pm

I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure blizz said a while back that they'd be making all dot's and hot's dynamically refresh. So I'd hope SS recalculates the absorb size at the start of each 6 sec tick, hence no advantage to refreshing after an impale.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:25 pm

It doesnt however.
EF hot is recalculated all the time, but SS keeps its initial value.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby daishan » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:59 pm

Damn that sucks, any idea if it's intended or a bug/lazy design?
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Nooska » Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:21 am

Well, since SS can be recast at any time* and EF is a hot that comes with the WoG you just cast, it makes sense for them to behave differently.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:19 am

SS not updating is both good and bad.
For tank swaps, its freaking amazing.
I reached 130k SS, then the other tank taunted and thats pretty insane (imo)
It also means an SS prepull is going to turn out pretty useless a few sec into the fight, and should be reapplied before its due to expire for more survivability, but I tent do not care about SS uptime that early in the fight since few fights kill you in the begining before shit starts to happen.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:55 am

aresius wrote:For example, if your group has a Spriest/Bdruid/EleShammy wouldent the extra spellhaste, wouldent it grant extra healing ticks to EF's HoT(while not improving SS)?

It does, but that's already been accounted for in my calculations. It does improve EF, but as you noted, the absorb is still more attractive. I haven't run numbers on EF with BoG stacks, but if I recall properly EF was doing ~1/3 as much healing as SS absorbs. Another 150-200% healing from BoG stacks would only barely pull it even with SS's absorb. And there's still the opportunity cost (and absorb vs. heal difference) to consider, both of which lean in favor of SS.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 11:34 pm

Any chance of updating the guide to include a discussion of the L90 talents?

I've plumped for Holy Prism.

I was thinking of Execution Sentence, but at the moment, running 5 mans, I don't see a need for a dps CD as a tank. A marginal increase in my damage in that context seems inconsequential.

Holy Prism seems to have more utility, both for a little extra AOE threat and perhaps some healing, and as a button to press when everything else is on CD.

Light's Hammer sounded attractive for picking up adds, but there's a thread on MMO-Champion saying it does not generate threat, which would rule out that use.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby jere » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:12 am

I checked Light's Hammer last night while the baby was napping. It does generate threat, but it is probably bugged:

1. Damage neither shows up in the combat window nor generates threat, though it does occur as Light's Hammer kills stuff.
2. Healing generates 25% threat as opposed to 50% like everything else, assuming it isn't overhealing.

In my 451ish gear, it was generating similar threat to consecration if I was getting healed by it (versus just overhealing).

Still I like it just for how much damage and healing it does. It's not huge, but it has nice utility.

I posted a thread in the bug forum for it. Hopefully they read it and maybe respond to it.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Fenris » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:52 am

1. Damage neither shows up in the combat window nor generates threat, though it does occur as Light's Hammer kills stuff.

From what i've seen from a few recount people linked me (and looking at the combat log) after i used LH,while healing is linked to the caster,damage is reported to the hammer itself (see http://i49.tinypic.com/vcutfc.jpg here).So if you have some kind of filter for "show only what i do" active on the chat,that could be why it's not showing.

And i guess that mean the aggro from healing goes to the caster while that caused by the damage could actually be wasted.



Another problem with LH is that the hammer can bug out with the terrain (you cast it=>it goes inside the ground/something else) so you get no aoe & waste the cd
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby jere » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:22 pm

I've only had issues with it on hilly terrain. Nothing bad yet in dungeons.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Fenris » Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:57 pm

jere wrote:I've only had issues with it on hilly terrain. Nothing bad yet in dungeons.

I've seen it sink into plain ground here and there too (first room of shando-pan monastery for example)
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Kihra » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:13 am

So with the huge nerfs to Censure, is Glyph of Immediate Truth more worthwhile if you're wanting to focus on DPS? It's hard to imagine it being a DPS loss now that Censure does very little damage.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby ramboschox » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:41 am

From a damage soothing POV shouldnt we pick EF > SS? If we compare those 2, SS makes us more spiky (every 6 secs, a nice absorb, rest of time nothing) while EF smoothes the incoming DPS by giving a us preiodic hot?
The contra argument is, that SS adds more survivability in regards of reducing the total damage taken. A bit mirrored to the damage soothing via hit/exp/mastery/haste vs avoid.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Nooska » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:57 am

More importantly, EF costs us uptime on ShoR if we want to maintain it, and if we don't and only use it in emergencies, the extra hot is not useful, as the healers will definately have a big heal incoming when we spike low and use WoG.
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