5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

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5.4 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:05 pm

This guide is designed to provide the following:
-A basic description of the our talent and glyph options
-A brief discussion of where and when each talent or glyph might be useful, as well as recommendations for general-purpose tanking
-Answers to commonly asked talent/glyph-related questions, with links to references for those seeking more detailed information.

Table of Contents

  1. Talents
  2. Glyphs
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
  4. Changelog
Last edited by theckhd on Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Talents

With 5.0, we have a new talent system that is more compact and vastly simpler to use. Rather than meticulously min/maxing your spec and then more or less ignoring it for the rest of the expansion, the new system encourages on-the-fly talent swapping to meet the needs of a given encounter. A useful talent guide needs to identify not only the mechanics of each talent choice, but where that talent might shine (or not). With that in mind, I've arranged the guide by tiers, and within each tier described the strengths and weaknesses of each talent.

Tier 1 - Level 15 - Movement
Tier 1 is the movement tier, giving us options for our movement increase.

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Speed of Light grants 70% movement speed for 8 seconds on a 45-second cooldown.
Long Arm of the Law grants 45% movement speed for 3 seconds every time you hit with Judgment.
Pursuit of Justice grants 15% movement speed plus an additional 5% movement speed per Holy Power, up to a maximum of 30% total.

There's really no wrong choice in this tier, so it's ultimately up to you to choose how you want your movement increase bonus. In some sense, this is the ideal example of the intent of the new talent system.

Having a sprint-like effect is very strong, so Speed of Light is a great choice. For engineers, it may be slightly less attractive since they can "rocket belt," but SoL doesn't come with nasty side effects. Speed of Light will shine on fights where there's a brief period of movement every so often, with long lulls in-between. Historical examples include Heroic Ragnaros (molten seeds), Warmaster Blackhorn, Heroic Lei Shen.

Long Arm of the Law is potentially the weakest of the three for protection, since Judgment is a high-priority part of our rotation. We'll get less than 50% uptime out of the skill, and to have any control over it we need to hold back on Judgment, costing us HP generation (and survivability). It is incredibly good as a gap closer, since we'll often be using Judgment when something's at range, making it a solid choice for closing distance to new targets. I don't think it's a bad choice, just not as strong as the other two for most tanking situations. Historical examples: Any fight with adds

Pursuit of Justice is the "always-on" choice, giving us the baseline 15% movement speed we're used to from the old version of the talent. It also gives a stacking HP bonus that's contingent on Holy Power, which is strong for protection as we'll be regularly banking HP to 5. Thus, in most cases we will have an almost static 30% speed buff from Pursuit of Justice. This is great for extended movement periods as well, as you can bank 3 HP before the movement and keep the speed boost. Historical Examples: Heroic Ragnaros (World of Flame), Heroic Nefarian (add kiting), Heigan (dance).

Theck's Recommendation: I like Pursuit of Justice, but you really can't go wrong with any of them. Pick whichever you like best, and respec whenever a boss encounter favors a different choice.

Tier 2 - Level 30 - Crowd Control
Tier 2 is the crowd control tier, giving us options for mob handling.

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Fist of Justice replaces Hammer of Justice, effectively reducing the cooldown to 30 seconds and increasing the range to 20 yards.
Repentance incapacitates a rarget for 1 minute on a 15-second cooldown, but has a 1.7-second cast time. The incapacitate is broken by damage.
Evil is a Point of View allows Turn Evil to work on Humanoids and Beasts.

None of the abilities in this tier will have any effect on bosses, but they're all useful in 5-man and world content (heroics, scenarios, challenge modes).

Fist of Justice gives you more flexibility with in-combat stuns, and might see use on boss encounters with adds. Remember, stun time can translate to a pretty significant reduction of damage intake, so this will likely be the default choice for boss encounters. Historical Examples: Any boss fight with adds

Repentance gives your 5-man group another pre-pull CC option. Since it has a cast time, it's not likely to be much help if someone breaks that CC, but since the tank sets the pace in most 5-mans, it's about the only CC ability you can be sure will get applied. Little to no use on boss encounters though; respec FoJ for those.

5.4 Change: Evil is a Point of View replaces Burden of Guilt, which has become a glyph in 5.4. This adds a fear to our complement of crowd control options (stuns from Hammer of Justice, Knockdown/Disorient from Blinding Light). Note that Turn Evil has a cast time, so it may be difficult to use while tanking.

Theck's Recommendation: Fist of Justice for general raiding, but any choice is fine for 5-mans.

Tier 3 - Level 45 - Healing
Tier 3 is the healing tier, and specializes in improving our ability to sustain ourselves.

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Selfless Healer gives you a mana-free, instant-cast Flash of Light every ~15 seconds that heals for an additional 60% if cast on an ally. If you cast it on yourself, it instead increases the healing by 20% per stack of Bastion of Glory and consumes those stacks.
Eternal Flame replaces Word of Glory, and adds a heal-over-time (HoT) component that lasts 30 seconds, ticking every 3 seconds. When used on yourself, the HoT effect is doubled. Bastion of Glory affects both the direct and HoT components.
Sacred Shield gives us a damage absorption shield every 6 seconds for 30 seconds.

5.4 Change: Before 5.4, Sacred Shield was the unambiguous winner in this category. But in 5.4, it got nerfed by 30% and Eternal Flame got buffed by 40%. That was enough to make Eternal Flame a competitor. Selfless healer also gained some interaction with Bastion of Glory.

Eternal Flame's (EF) base heal is exactly the same as WoG, so the HoT is the only added benefit of the talent. The HoT scales with Bastion of Glory now, and thanks to successive buffs in the last few patches it now heals for 3x-4x as much healing as Sacred Shield absorbs once the 100% self-healing bonus and Bastion of Glory stacks are factored in. While absorption is generally better than healing, the sheer throughput of EF is so much higher than SS that it tends to "win" by brute force. Note that it does require a little more skill to use properly than Sacred Shield, as you sacrifice SotR casts to maintain the HoT and ideally want to refresh at high Vengeance, 3+ Holy Power, and 3+ stacks of Bastion of Glory.

Sacred Shield is still quite strong. The buff is long enough that it's not hard to maintain and has a near-zero DPS cost (replacing a Holy Wrath every now and then) and no Holy Power cost (unlike EF, which requires that you WoG). It's also pro-active mitigation and tends to give a bigger survivability boost against large one-shot mechanics than EF will.

Selfless Healer finally got buffed in an attempt to be useful to tanks. Since the mechanics of Selfless Healer are less than obvious, here's a detailed explanation of how it works. Each stack of the Selfless Healer buff reduces the cast time by 35%, so at 3 stacks Flash of Light is instant-cast. If you heal an ally, it's just a simple 20%/40%/60% increase to the healing done at 1/2/3 stacks. However, if you heal yourself, it increases the heal by 20% per stack of Bastion of Glory only, regardless of how many stacks of Selfless Healer you have, as long as you have at least one. So with 5 stacks of Bastion of Glory you get +100% healing done regardless of whether you had 1 or 3 stacks of Selfless healer.

That makes it fairly weak compared to the other two options. At 3 SH / 5 BoG, FoL was healing me for ~70k unbuffed on the PTR, compared to 35k with no stacks of either. Eternal Flame at 5 stacks of BoG heals for 115k and ticks for 35k. Not even in the same ballpark. Since Flash of Light doesn't scales as well with spellpower, the situation should be even worse at high Vengeance levels.

Theck's Recommendation: Eternal Flame under most circumstances, Sacred Shield if it suits the fight.

Tier 4 - Level 60 - Utility
Tier 4 is the utility tier, improving our... raid utility?

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Hand of Purity grants a 6-second buff that reduces DoT damage by 80%, DoT effects that can't be cleared by immunities by 40%, and all other damage by 10%.
Unbreakable Spirit reduces the remaining cooldown on Divine Protection, Divine Shield, and Lay on Hands by 50%.
Clemency lets us cast any Hand spell twice before activating their cooldown.

5.4 Change: Hand of Purity got buffed slightly (70% to 80%, now works on non-immunable effects at 40% rather than nothing), Unbreakable Spirit got buffed/simplified.

This is a bit of a weird tier, because "utility" is a bit vague. It might be better-named the "potpourri" tier, because it's a weird mish-mash of stuff. If it weren't for Unbreakable Spirit, I'd call this the "Hands" tier.

Hand of Purity is a pretty obvious choice for boss fights with DoT damage. As protection, we'd choose this to gain an extra cooldown in certain scenarios. Not much to say about it, other than that it's very situational. Examples: Stone Guard, Lei Shi.

Unbreakable Spirit is a great default choice for this tier. It doesn't exactly fit the "Hands/Utility" theme, but it does reduce the effective cooldown of Lay on Hands to 5 minutes, Divine Protection to 30 seconds, and Divine Shield to 2.5 minutes. That's incredibly potent for a protection spec, because it gives you more frequent access to 2 major and 1 minor cooldown. Even for some DoT fights, this may edge out Hand of Purity simply because of the raw cooldown-age it lets you toss around. If you're proficient with "stupid pally tricks," a.k.a. using Divine Shield to break or cheese encounters, you'll get a lot of mileage out of this talent.

Clemency was the dark horse in tier 14. I ended up using it for more boss fights than the other two combined, because it has the potential to be game-breaking on certain encounters. Being able to BoP or HoSac two targets to immunity certain encounter mechanics or give your co-tank more cooldown coverage can be huge. Examples: Feng, Gara'jal, Elegon, Spirit Kings, Blade Lord, Garalon, Wind Lord, Lei Shi. Unfortunately I barely used it at all in tier 15, so it's anybody's guess how much we'll use it in tier 16.

Theck's Recommendation: Unbreakable Spirit for general purpose content. Spec Hand of Purity if the boss encounter warrants it, or Clemency if it lets you break certain mechanics.

Tier 5 - Level 75 - Holy Power Generation
Tier 5 is the Holy Power generation tier, focusing on ways to increase our resource generation.

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Holy Avenger is an updated version of Zealotry - every Holy Power generator deals 30% more damage and grants 3 HP instead of 1 while the buff is active. 18-second duration, 2-minute cooldown.
Sanctified Wrath increases the duration of Avenging Wrath by 10 seconds and reduces the cooldown of Judgment to 3 seconds during Avenging Wrath and causes it to generate an additional Holy Power. Also increases healing received by 20% during AW.
Divine Purpose is much like the Cataclysm version - any Holy Power finisher has a 25% chance to grant the Divine Purpose buff, which lets you cast a finisher at no cost. Can chain proc, as well.

5.4 Change: Sanctified Wrath now causes Judgment to generate 2 Holy Power during Avenging Wrath.

Holy Avenger gives you 20-30 seconds of guaranteed SotR uptime, which makes it a strong mitigation cooldown. In addition, it's only a little behind Divine Purpose in time-averaged SotR uptime. Also note that when alternating between tanking and off-tanking, HA can give you better effective SotR uptime than the other two options. At current haste levels, it falls behind Divine Purpose in raw DPS.

Sanctified Wrath gives the lowest time-averaged SotR uptime and the lowest DPS of the three options. It's SotR uptime no longer lags the other two by as much due to the Holy Power buff in 5.4. The 20% healing received is pretty strong, especially given the 30-second duration. But it is on a 3-minute cooldown, so you can't use it as often.

Divine Purpose gives you the highest time-averaged SotR uptime and the highest DPS boost at 25%+ haste. Since the uptime isn't controllable, it requires a little more finesse to use well than Holy Avenger or Sanctified Wrath. It's also incredibly fun.

Theck's Recommendation: All three are good choices. Which you take will really depend on the nature of the encounter you're preparing for and your personal preference. I've swapped back and forth between HA and DP for T16, but I'm looking forward to playing with SW some in T16 as well to see how it feels.


Tier 6 - Level 90 - New Abilities
Tier 6 is the Ability tier, giving us three new spells to choose from.

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Holy Prism either damages a target and radiates healing or heals a target and radiates damage. 20-second cooldown, instant effect.
Light's Hammer is sort of like Consecration, but damages enemies and heals friendly players within the area of effect, and snares enemies it damages by 50%. 1-minute cooldown, effect lasts 14 seconds (8 ticks, 2-second intervals, ticks immediately).
Execution Sentence is a DoT or a HoT depending on whether the target is hostile or friendly. The damage or healing ramps up from small to large over the duration, with the last tick being significantly larger. It's purely single-target healing or damage. 1-minute cooldown, DoT or HoT lasts 10 seconds.

5.4 Changes: Light's Hammer's healing was capped at 6 players, but chooses the 6 lowest-health targets in range. Execution Sentence gained has dispel protection for PvP and all of those bosses that dispel themselves.

Holy Prism is kind of nice in that it fills a niche we're currently lacking, namely burst AoE threat. By self-casting it, you'll hit up to 5 enemies around you with holy damage. That combined with the short cooldown makes it an excellent skill for initial aggro on trash packs. Casting it on a single target (i.e. a boss) radiates healing, which in theory could help with melee healing on damage-heavy fights. That said, the short cooldown means that it takes more GCDs than either of the other options. I've been very tight on GCDs while tanking so far, so I haven't found it easy to fit in Sacred Shield maintenance, no less find room for Holy Prism. Our other skills are so strong that it isn't usually worth pushing them back for Holy Prism, so it just ends up replacing some Consecrations on bosses.

Light's Hammer is nice because you don't have to choose between its healing and damage. It's not as much DPS as Execution Sentence on a single target, but on 2 or more targets it pulls ahead. I've been using LH pretty extensively so far. The extra AoE damage pull helps smooth trash clears and the low GCD requirement lets me use it more effectively than Holy Prism. More importantly, with Vengeance it's a mini-Tranquility, so my guild uses it as a raid cooldown. It will be less effective as a raid cooldown in 5.4 thanks to the target cap, though.

Execution Sentence is the raw DPS choice. It's a huge amount of damage per cast, and uses only 1 GCD a minute, so it gives the largest single-target DPS boost of any of the three talents. However, that's about all it does. You can cast it on yourself, but the 10-second ramp-up makes it tricky to use effectively. Overall it heals for only around 1/3 of your health at high vengeance, so the "burst" heal at the end isn't even that large if you do time it effectively. And generally, if your healer hasn't taken care of you in 10 seconds, you're toast already.

Theck's Recommendation: I don't think there's any bad choice here. ES is by far the single-target DPS winner, so talent that on a fight where your boss DPS matters. Choose Light's Hammer if you want to use it as a raid cooldown or for trash clears. If you want stronger snap aggro on trash packs, grab Holy Prism.
Last edited by theckhd on Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:19 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Glyphs

Minor glyphs are all cosmetic changes, so I won't be going over them. Prime glyphs are gone in 5.0, which leaves only Major Glyphs. I've omitted all of the ones that aren't relevant to protection (ex: Glyph of Holy Shock ought not be in any tanks glyph load-out).

Major Glyps

5.4 Changes: Lots of glyph changes this patch. Alabaster Shield nerfed, Battle Healer really nerfed, Holy Wrath buffed, Turn Evil and Rebuke redesigned, and two new glyphs (Divine Shield and Hand of Sacrifice).

Glyph of the Alabaster Shield - Grants a stacking buff every time you block, casting SotR consumes the buff and increases the damage of SotR by 10% per stack. This glyph adds a fairly significant amount of damage, especially on fights with multiple adds.

Glyph of Avenging Wrath - Minor amount of healing from Avenging Wrath. Nice, but it's only 10% of your total health over 20 seconds (18% over 30 if you talent Sanctified Wrath). A small enough effect that this barely qualifies as a Major glyph, IMO. Your glyph spots are too valuable to waste on this one, I'm afraid.

Glyph of the Battle Healer - This converts Seal of Insight from a self-heal proc to a smart-heal proc, but reduces the size of the heal to 30% of the unglyphed value. A huge hit to personal survivability for a small amount of raid healing, it's unlikely we'll want to take this glyph anymore.

Glyph of Blessed Life - This is the "holy power on stun/fear/immobilize" part of the Cataclysm Pursuit of Justice talent converted into a glyph. Unfortunately, it's still not very useful, as few bosses do any of those things to the tank. Probably best to skip this one.

Glyph of Blinding Light - Converts Blinding Light from a 6-second blind to a 3-second knockdown. Interesting, in that it makes the crowd-control aspect far more effective since knockdowns don't break on damage. However, this will likely see little use in raiding. Might be a good 5-man glyph, though.

Glyph of Burden of Guilt - Adds a 2-second, 50% movement speed snare debuff to Judgment. Probably doesn't work on bosses, but could be helpful on encounters where we need to kite adds (ex: Rotface in ICC).

Glyph of Consecration - Allows us to place Consecration, much like Death and Decay. A very neat piece of utility if you like that play style. This one will probably be pretty situational though - if an encounter has adds spawning a reasonable distance away, it will be useful; if not, we'd skip it for something else.

Glyph of Dazing Shield - Unchanged from Cataclysm, still adds a daze to Avenger's Shield. Primarily a 5-man glyph.

Glyph of Devotion Aura - Devotion Aura no longer affects raid/party members, but the cooldown is reduced by 60 seconds. High price for not much gain in availability, but there might be a niche use for it.

Glyph of Divine Protection - Converts Divine Protection from 40% magic damage redux to 20% all damage redux. Note that this has been inverted from Cataclysm, as has Divine Protection itself. Still a pretty powerful glyph, in my opinion.

Glyph of Divine Shield - Heals you for 10% of your maximum health for each harmful debuff you remove with Divine Shield. Could be useful on fights where we clear debuffs a lot, but probably not a strong effect in most circumstances.

Glyph of Divinity - Increases the cooldown of LoH by 2 minutes, but grants us mana when we cast it. More or less useless to us, don't take this.

Glyph of Double Jeopardy - Increases Judgments damage by 20% if you use it on a different target than the last Judgment. A minor DPS increase if we're tab-targeting between two different mobs. In most cases, this won't be a large enough effect to bother with.

Glyph of Final Wrath - 50% extra Holy Wrath damage in execute range. This is actually a reasonably large DPS increase during execute now that HW hits like a truck. Larger than Focused Shield during execute, but obviously much less effective when averaged over an entire encounter.

Glyph of Flash of Light - Increases the healing done to your target when you chain-cast Flash of Light on them. I hesitate to even include this glyph on the list, because it's basically useless to us, but just in case you were thinking about being that guy and trying to synergize this with Selfless Healer: don't. Just don't. Bad glyph is bad, leave it on the shelf.

Glyph of Focused Shield - 30% more damage on AS, but reduces the number of targets to 1. Unchanged since Cataclysm, fairly sizable DPS boost (~2%-3% overall) against a single target.

Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous - This glyph is now irrelevant because Crusader Strike applies Weakened Blows.

Glyph of Hand of Sacrifice - Removes the damage transfer component of Hand of Sacrifice, making it safer to use while tanking.

Glyph of Harsh Words - This glyph is actually a pretty significant DPS increase, believe it or not. WoG's healing is significantly larger than SotR's damage at all AP levels, so substituting Harsh Word for SotR is a DPS increase. Alabaster Shield negates most of the benefit while tanking, but while off-tanking Harsh Words lets you eke out a little more DPS. With 50k Vengeance, it's a ~1k DPS increase while tanking and a ~2.5k DPS increase while off-tanking (out of ~45k DPS). That said, since it's so situational, it's probably not worth bothering with (it's rare to have a lot of vengeance while off-tanking for a significant portion of the fight).

Glyph of Holy Wrath - Holy Wrath stuns Aberrations, Elementals and Dragonkin too. Pretty situational. Perhaps less interesting this time around, since there will probably be less Elementals.

Glyph of Immediate Truth - A DPS loss across the board. Pretty much only useful if your target's going to die before you get a 5-stack. I'd call this a leveling glyph, but let's face it, as prot you're going to kill things so slowly that it'll still be a DPS loss. And if you're AoE tanking, you should be using Seal of Righeousness. So... ret leveling glyph, maybe?

Glyph of Protector of the Innocent - When you WoG someone else, you get healed for 20% of that amount. Gives you a small benefit when you WoG your co-tank or someone else. Of course, if you're using WoG on someone else, it's probably because you don't need healing, so it doesn't do you much good anyway. Probably not worth using.

Glyph of Word of Glory - Grants a buff increasing damage by 3% per holy power when you WoG, lasts 6 seconds. A significant DPS loss over just using SotR, but it makes up for some of the DPS you lose if you have to WoG yourself. Note that it doesn't work if you're using WoG offensively (i.e. Harsh Words). Probably not worth slotting in.

Theck's recommendation: Alabaster Shield and Focused Shield are both excellent DPS glyphs. I find that I frequently prefer the 20% mitigation version of Divine Protection to the 40% magic mitigation version, so that's another good one to choose (if situational). Final Wrath is another interesting option if you really need DPS during execute range. There are a few good utility glyphs that you can choose from if you like them, but none are big enough to feel mandatory.
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Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Frequently Asked Questions
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Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:06 pm

Changelog

09/08/2013 - Lots of changes for 5.4.
03/06/2013 - Light's Hammer now generates threat.
03/05/2013 - Updated for 5.2
10/02/2012 - Added L90 talent descriptions
09/12/2012 - Updated EF and SS descriptions with BoG interaction
08/27/2012 - First version, talent L15-L75 discussion, glyphs
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Anything I may have forgotten

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:06 pm

reserved
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:07 pm

OK, that should be complete enough for 5.0.4. Fire away with comments/suggestions/corrections/etc.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Meloree » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:35 pm

Two minor points: Given SotR's scaling (and regular) physical damage redux, I think that unglyphed DP should probably be the default stance. Certainly it's situationally useful to glyph, but with MoP mechanics, I think the magic reduction is far more valuable.

Second: Speed of Light - I think you're probably not giving it enough credit - 70% runspeed on demand leads to way more broken-mechanics style tricks. I give you - P4 Ragnaros kiting after screwing up a trap, solotanking Ragnaros (2nd transition add pickup - way easier with sprint). Also, tier 11 - Atramedes laser-kiting, Maloriak add-kiting, Council of Winds, V&T (solotanking), Ascendant Council, Cho'gall - all places where a sprint would be more useful (and the rest are a wash).
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Jezakael » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:43 pm

Glyph of Blinding Light - Converts Blinding Light from a 3-second blind to a 3-second knockdown. Interesting, in that it makes the crowd-control aspect far more effective since knockdowns don't break on damage. However, this will likely see little use in raiding. Might be a good 5-man glyph, though.

The tooltip of Blinding Light states that it has a 6-second blind, so the glyph seems to cut the duaration in half. Still potentially more useful, I guess.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Schroom » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:51 am

Theck's Recommendation: HA and SW are both good choices, and which you take will really depend on the nature of the encounter you're preparing for. I prefer HA because 18 seconds of near-melee-invulnerability is very strong, but I couldn't fault someone for taking SW either. Divine Purpose is likely to be the black sheep of this tier, as the slight TDR increase just doesn't make up for the lack of control.


also HA gives you the Ashbringer right? so no-brainer by default? *gg* :D
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Jaitee » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:58 am

Jezakael wrote:
Glyph of Blinding Light - Converts Blinding Light from a 3-second blind to a 3-second knockdown. Interesting, in that it makes the crowd-control aspect far more effective since knockdowns don't break on damage. However, this will likely see little use in raiding. Might be a good 5-man glyph, though.

The tooltip of Blinding Light states that it has a 6-second blind, so the glyph seems to cut the duaration in half. Still potentially more useful, I guess.

aoe CC that breaks on damage isnt really useful since what we are in the middle of is usually getting aoed hard and would break in less then a second (though would still interupt casts) the knockdown for 3 seconds would be quite useful though especially coupled with speed of light since during that 3 seconds we could cover some serious ground very useful for if your healer is struggling and needs a few seconds to catch up (this is from a 5 man perspective of course)
the other thing the glyph might affect would be mob immunities some mobs are immune to different CCs we might find a fight where the glyph doesnt work but the default blind does in which case making a post regarding what it does and doesnt affect may be usful

and theck while DP its the least controllable its probably worth mentioning that its probably the best choice for any fight where DPS isnt an issue and where the boss doesnt have a high physical damage output phase that HA can mitigate significantly (i havnt looked at the mop raids yet so no idea how many fights are like that) especially if blizzard succeeds in making mana over the course of an entire fight matter

also theck since sacred shield scales with SP which we get through AP which we get through getting hit would it be possible to work out how much it scales with hit size i.e taking 100k damage over 6 seconds it absorbs 5% taking 200k over 6 seconds it absorbs 4%...i may bust my calculator out in the morning and see if i can math it out but since im somewhat bad at math i imagine ill get it horribly wrong
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:35 am

Jezakael wrote:The tooltip of Blinding Light states that it has a 6-second blind, so the glyph seems to cut the duaration in half. Still potentially more useful, I guess.

Fixed.
Jaitee wrote:and theck while DP its the least controllable its probably worth mentioning that its probably the best choice for any fight where DPS isnt an issue and where the boss doesnt have a high physical damage output phase that HA can mitigate significantly (i havnt looked at the mop raids yet so no idea how many fights are like that) especially if blizzard succeeds in making mana over the course of an entire fight matter

It only barely edges out HA in terms of average SotR uptime, and it's not like it's an even, consistent effect either. It can and will chain-proc and lead to periods of 6-10+ seconds of uptime. I'm not sure I'd call it the "best" choice on any fight.

It's sort of like asking whether you'd give up GAnK for 5% more average baseline mitigation. Yeah, the 5% extra mitigation might reduce damage taken by more, but the control aspect makes GAnK far more useful.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:49 am

Meloree wrote:Two minor points: Given SotR's scaling (and regular) physical damage redux, I think that unglyphed DP should probably be the default stance. Certainly it's situationally useful to glyph, but with MoP mechanics, I think the magic reduction is far more valuable.

I think this is still going to be a fight-by-fight choice. There will still be a lot of cases where the 20% physical redux is advantageous, especially if we can chain it with other cooldowns or cover for low-HPG periods. Unless there's a specific magic burst, or a fair amount of magical damage interspersed with the regular physical attacks, I'm not sure that the 40% is more attractive. For it to feel "far more valuable" to me, there would have to be a significant amount of magical damage for it to mitigate on every fight, especially given that it's a 40-second cooldown. If 20% reduction is a sufficient cooldown, then the extra versatility provided by the glyph is likely worth the slot.

Meloree wrote:Second: Speed of Light - I think you're probably not giving it enough credit - 70% runspeed on demand leads to way more broken-mechanics style tricks. I give you - P4 Ragnaros kiting after screwing up a trap, solotanking Ragnaros (2nd transition add pickup - way easier with sprint). Also, tier 11 - Atramedes laser-kiting, Maloriak add-kiting, Council of Winds, V&T (solotanking), Ascendant Council, Cho'gall - all places where a sprint would be more useful (and the rest are a wash).

I still think this is situational.

P4 Ragnaros is definitely a good example of a phase where SoL shines. I'd argue that the rest of Rag favors PoJ though - add pickup while solo-tanking has never been all that hard with Righteous Defense (which, admittedly, we lose), tricks, misdirect, and just smart play (Judge one from max range, shift to the other side to taunt the other - if healers are near the center, they'll be headed to you anyway).

Laser kiting on Atramedes could be done with no run speed, so 15%-30% from PoJ is more than sufficient.

Maloriak add kiting was similarly fine - you could outrun them with 15% already, 30% is overkill.

I can't think of the situations you're referring to with Council of Winds or V&T. We never needed much tank movement on Council or V&T, and certainly nothing that PoJ wasn't sufficient for.

Ascendant council is another encounter where I think a strong argument can be made for SoL. Cho'gall less so, but it depends on which tank you were. I could see it being helpful to the add tank, but I could also see the 30% boost being more helpful since there are a few separate motions that are closer than 45 seconds apart (add pick-up, positioning, re-positioning for add death).

I'm certainly not saying that SoL is bad. Just that I don't think it's the blindingly obvious choice in that tier. Some fights will favor it, others won't, but in most cases you could get by with either SoL or PoJ, which is how the talent system is supposed to work.
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Re:

Postby Treck » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:22 am

theckhd wrote:Glyph of Word of Glory - Grants a buff increasing damage by 3% per holy power when you WoG, lasts 6 seconds. A significant DPS loss over just using SotR, but it makes up for some of the DPS you lose if you have to WoG yourself. Note that it doesn't work if you're using WoG offensively (i.e. Harsh Words). Probably not worth slotting in.

Actually it does work on live when WoG is used offensivly.
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Re: 5.0 Talent and Glyph Guide

Postby Nooska » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:04 pm

Hasn't that been acknowledged as unintended and fixed in the beta though?
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