1/31/4 4.0 Threat spec

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1/31/4 4.0 Threat spec

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:19 pm

I got into a discussion with another paladin tank, and had my own observations.

There has been plenty of debate over Grand Crusade and first let me start off by saying I love it and am glyphed around it. I feel it is a definite threat increase especially with focused shield. However, there are only two times that you can actually use the proc ( I know it resets CD, but usually by the time you get to use it the CD would have been up anyways)

A) If you are about to use Holy Wrath and your GC procs ( obviously use Avengers Shield)
B) If you are about to use judgment and you have enough mana, the boss already has a 10 percent damage reduction on him, and you have a sacred duty proc already)

I feel that while tanking with just the 1 Point into Grand Crusade it obviously does proc less, but I feel like I get to use it at the same amount of effectiveness as before.

Why the 3 percent haste?

Currently using Heroic BVB, and I have been looking at logs and melee damage is quite high. Also some forum post on here asked about what type of potion should you use on raid bosses and haste was listed at the top. Beyond that it gives more burst threat at the beginning of the encounter. Speaking of which I really need to make a macro linking my Engineering Gloves to my Crusader Strike and HoTR.

Here are some logs that show melee damage ( which also persuaded me to roll with much more expertise)

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/log/1953371 10/31/10 ( I just looked at Heroic Saurfang cause I felt it to be the most accurate)

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/log/1966566 11/07/10 ( Note the increase in melee damage since I had increased my expertise)

I'll include full log this week with the spec.

Last the haste makes our Seal of Truth stacks get up there quicker especially when using a slower weapon ( and I"m sure in that aspect the value of haste is probably rough to decipher over the randomness of the Grand Crusade procs)

Why not take a point out of guarded by the light?

Guarded by the light is useful because if you do need to use your heal you are still keeping up your holy shield and still mitigating the damage. You might be thinking well yeah but you only need one point to do that?

Well if you need to be using Word of Glory, then the extra 30 percent healing is probably helpful or you wouldn't be using the Word of Glory to heal at all. However as this is a threat spec I would consider putting it back into GC. Again I feel thats more of a personal conviction because I don't think it actually affects how many times you get to use your Avengers Shield based on rotation.

Isn't Imp Judgments just a personal choice as well?

Think about a pull from ranged. Crusader strike requires melee range which is 5 yrds. An untalented Judgment requires 10 you to be within 10 yrds. So Even running in and using avengers shield from 30 yds away it isn't optimal to judge him next ( getting up the 10 percent reduced damage) over using crusader strike. Because if you Avengers shield, and then judge you'll be sitting there with the boss in your face for a good .7 seconds with you doing nothing because your next move would have to be Crusader Strike/ HoTR.

Now with the 1 point in improved judgment, again this only affects when pulling from range and not fights like Saurfang/ LK. You Avengers Shield, and judgment from 20 yards away ( Getting Damage debuff on boss, start getting mana back, and have a chance at proccing Sacred Duty if you randomly dont get a proc on your next ones or it'll already be up there if a GC procs so you can use AS instead of judgment at that point if it does proc), and then your at the boss and your not sitting there in a GCD doing nothing.

Discuss.
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Re: 1/31/4 4.0 Threat spec

Postby theckhd » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:00 am

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:However, there are only two times that you can actually use the proc ( I know it resets CD, but usually by the time you get to use it the CD would have been up anyways)

A) If you are about to use Holy Wrath and your GC procs ( obviously use Avengers Shield)
B) If you are about to use judgment and you have enough mana, the boss already has a 10 percent damage reduction on him, and you have a sacred duty proc already)

I feel that while tanking with just the 1 Point into Grand Crusade it obviously does proc less, but I feel like I get to use it at the same amount of effectiveness as before.


There's only one time that you can actually use it, because situation B) doesn't happen if you're following a proper rotation.

That said, I'm not sure I really understand your argument here. The second point in Grand Crusader is still better threat per point than a single point in JotP. So for your "threat spec" you're dropping a higher-DPS talent for a lower-DPS talent?

If you're not in danger of dying, then drop GbtL. If you are in danger of dying, then just keep GbtL and ignore JotP.


I'm personally a big fan of Improved Judgements, though I didn't have room for it in my current WoG build. It's a very similar argument to Pursuit of Justice though, in that it's very subjective. I've seen the argument that it grants 0 DPS, and thus should be lower priority than guaranteed threat talents, but I don't buy that logic. Utility increases like Improved Judgement can be nebulous to put a DPS value on. But I guarantee that the extra range from Improved Judgement has saved more of my healers than the extra threat from JotP would have. I miss having it with my WoG build, that's for sure.

Sustained single-target threat is somewhat of a non-issue right now anyway as long as your gear is on-par with that of your DPS. I have no trouble holding aggro with my WoG build, which foregoes GC and SotP entirely, and only picks up 1/2 Reckoning and 2/3 Crusade. I've been tempted to drop Crusade to get IJ again, but the fights that "matter" for me right now don't get much benefit from IJ.
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Re: 1/31/4 4.0 Threat spec

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:20 am

After having a long diatribe with myself I guess B never really would happen. I even made a post thought about it and deleted it after I thought about it some more and its more sometimes its nice to have an option to use your Grand Crusader proc on pull/ after some weird boss mechanic.

After your first Charge of Holy Power: so instead of

1.CS 2. Judgment you'd get to use your Avengers shield in place of judgment for first Charge of Hpower, then CS, then judgment after second, then CS and SoTR. I guess thats where I was thinking I was sometimes replacing judgment but either way you are replacing Holy Wrath, just one offers more burst threat. And technically you shouldn't sub AS unless you have the Attack speed debuff on boss, and are doing good on mana.

I'm sitting there thinking I know I'm doing the rotation right its not that difficult. Darng wine nights :D.
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Re: 1/31/4 4.0 Threat spec

Postby theckhd » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:29 am

You never want to use Avenger's Shield in place of Judgement, that's your problem. Judgement is always higher priority than AS on single targets.

That gives you a priority queue of:
ShoR>CS>J>AS>(Cons)>HW

and a rotation of

CS-J-CS-X-CS-ShoR-

The X spot there is the only spot for lower priority spells like AS, Cons, or Holy Wrath. Every other spot has a higher-priority spell. This is why Grand Crusader ends up being as weak as it is, it ends up shifting the 50% AS, 50% HW distribution to something like 66% AS, 34% HW. That's the same as reducing the effective cooldown of AS from 15 seconds to something like 12-13 seconds.
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Re: 1/31/4 4.0 Threat spec

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:45 am

Am I insane? My Avengers shield crits for like 14k compared to Judgment? As long as Judgment is getting used to get sacred duty up I don't see why I wouln't just put it in that X spot ? Again thats saying that is saying there is an attack speed debuff on boss, and I am good on mana?

Yeah just checked unless I'm missing something, its definitly okay if your building initial threat to do.

Like say on saurfang.

CS, then AS, CS, judgment, CS , SoTR... as long damn as their is an attack speed debuff.
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Re: 1/31/4 4.0 Threat spec

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:17 pm

For every ShoR to have a chance to be affected by Sacred Duty, you have to cast Judgement in between every two ShoRs. If you push Judgement from the first spot to the second (ie, from CS-J-CS-X-CS to CS-X-CS-J-CS) then you can't push it back a second time, because that would give you a ShoR without any chance of Sacred Duty.

If Sacred Duty was not consumed on cast replacing would be possible and make sense when the duration remaining was right, but that's not the case.
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Re: 1/31/4 4.0 Threat spec

Postby Neptuno » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:03 pm

so you find the haste tinker better because you ruled out the armor cd or just because you feel it's better bang for your buck when you can use something else for damage reduction? or did they remove the armor cd one?
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