4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Phonic » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:34 am

Treck wrote:The numbers i got the day of the 4.0 patch was that my crusader strike was ahead of my Hammer.
Dunno what could make that differ really.
But doesnt crusader strike scale with weapon and AP, while hamer scales with AP? (atleast the aoe portion)
Thus with a "slow" weapon Crusader strike would end up with more dmg than hammer.
But with a fast "tank" weapon crusader would end up a lot less?


With Vengeance stacked, HotR was outpacing CS. But as mentioned above, with the 150% base (increased from 120%), that answers the question and the cheese. At least they went that route of buffing CS and not the route of nerfing HotR
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:58 am

theckhd wrote:It looks like CS was stealth-buffed today, with that change CS will likely be ahead even if all of the bugs with HotR are fixed (2pT10 and Glyph are still not affecting the AoE portion).


Much as I hate to disagree with you Theck, I still get HotR hitting harder than crusade.

What people are missing, if they are using recount or some other meter is that HotR counts as 2 hits every time you use it...as a result, meters will show it as half the damage per hit.

Crusader Strike: Avg Hit 1810 (its a single attack)
HoTR: Avg Hit: 257 (melee Component) + 1913 (spell aoe component)

The combination of Glyph of HotR and 2Pce tier bonus simply makes it better than crusader strike in all situations...the only advantage crusader strike has is that it uses less mana

I did this test today on live just to validate prior conclusions. Tests were done with only self buffs (kings and SoTruth up)

I suppose its possible that with full raid buffs, the numbers may work differently given scaling coefficients.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Flex » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:08 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Much as I hate to disagree with you Theck, I still get HotR hitting harder than crusade.

What people are missing, if they are using recount or some other meter is that HotR counts as 2 hits every time you use it...as a result, meters will show it as half the damage per hit.

Crusader Strike: Avg Hit 1810 (its a single attack)
HoTR: Avg Hit: 257 (melee Component) + 1913 (spell aoe component)


What weapon are you using?

Using a 2.6 speed weapon nothing I can do can make HotR hit harder than CS.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:05 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:What people are missing, if they are using recount or some other meter is that HotR counts as 2 hits every time you use it...as a result, meters will show it as half the damage per hit.

I don't think most of us were making that oversight.

With the buff to CS, here's what I get from the ability damage simulation:
Code: Select all
           Raw    Net  Glyphed
ShoR     15712  14477  15924
CS        4703   4333   4528
JoT       5305   5496   6045
AS        8980   9137   4734
HW        4141   4734      0
HoW       7356   9511      0
Exor      4300   4305   5166
SoT        392    419      0
SoR        385    385      0
SoJ        166    167      0
Cens      9787  10470      0
Cons      6740   6748   8098
HotR       614    566    623
HaNova    4953   4357   4792
Melee     1313   1147      0


That's including the T10 2-piece. If you remove that from the Nova portion (since it's currently bugged), you're left with 4357/1.2=3631 damage from the nova. That plus the physical portion is still less than CS.

If they fix the T10 2-piece or Glyph bugs, then HotR will overtake CS again, it looks like.

Also note that dummy measurements are mostly irrelevant. Both spells scale with AP, and due to raid buffs and Vengeance, that scaling is usually what determines the winner in a raid situation. Right now, CS should scale slightly better:

CS is 1.5*2.4/14*1.9*0.6684=0.3266 or 32% of AP (independent of weapon speed)
HotR is about 4-6% for the physical portion (depending on weapon speed) and anywhere from 24% to 32% depending on whether you apply the glyph and tier bonus factors.

If they ever fix the T10 2-piece or glyph bugs, then HotR will likely overtake CS again.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby steadypal » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:18 pm

i tested on the dummy about = hits, and hotr did come out very very slightly ahead of cs..

that was with 2pc t10, and glyph of hotr

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fi1o ... details/0/


looks like hotr still might be ahead,,, that was just like 10 minutes of alternating cs/hotr casts and autoattacks only, they are about =, with hotr a tad more
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:35 pm

steadypal wrote:i tested on the dummy about = hits, and hotr did come out very very slightly ahead of cs..

that was with 2pc t10, and glyph of hotr

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fi1o ... details/0/


looks like hotr still might be ahead,,, that was just like 10 minutes of alternating cs/hotr casts and autoattacks only, they are about =, with hotr a tad more


....

What part of "dummy measurements are mostly irrelevant" was unclear? If I put unbuffed AP values (3500 or so) into the sim, I get the result you and Garath observed - HotR slightly ahead. But unless you plan on clicking off all of your raid buffs before you pull, that's meaningless for raid boss tanking.

At best, it might mean that HotR is better for heroic 5-mans, since you're unlikely to have much Vengeance AP in those.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Olen » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:22 pm

RF now boosts our threat from all damage by 200% not just holy damage correct?


[edited for noob spellingz]
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Zabkorili » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:41 pm

Apologizes if this has been asked before, but can you explain why the small change made between your Threat build 2/31/3 (http://wowtal.com/#k=RsnAz0R.a5o.paladin) and the build used for your calculations on the "Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x" thread of 0/31/5 (http://wowtal.com/#k=-kfFdYWM.a5o.paladin.). It seems the only difference is swapping Judgments of the Pure for Improved Judgement. Is it just a matter of preference of threat vs. utility? Assuming I'm correct in understanding that once we level past 80 Judgments of the Pure will become obsolete in favor of Rule of Law in terms of threat, wouldn't the 0/31/5 spec be more ideal?

Thank you. =)
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Minnerva » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:49 am

I am wondering if haste plays a part to our threat now since judgement of the pure is being picked up. waiting on theckhd to see how each stat now plays to our threat.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:07 am

Zabkorili wrote:Apologizes if this has been asked before, but can you explain why the small change made between your Threat build 2/31/3 (http://wowtal.com/#k=RsnAz0R.a5o.paladin) and the build used for your calculations on the "Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x" thread of 0/31/5 (http://wowtal.com/#k=-kfFdYWM.a5o.paladin.). It seems the only difference is swapping Judgments of the Pure for Improved Judgement. Is it just a matter of preference of threat vs. utility? Assuming I'm correct in understanding that once we level past 80 Judgments of the Pure will become obsolete in favor of Rule of Law in terms of threat, wouldn't the 0/31/5 spec be more ideal?


It's purely a utility vs. DPS question. I personally prefer the utility of Imp. J, but if you were going for an all-out threat build you would see a slight gain by moving those points into JotP.

The builds I listed are all designed for level 80. Once we have access to Rule of Law, it would be preferable to JotP, and I'll update the builds accordingly.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Chicken » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:52 pm

Olen wrote:RF now boosts our threat from all damage by 200% not just holy damage correct?


[edited for noob spellingz]
Yes, it does.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby pfunkmort » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:51 am

are you sure about efae? It's obviously not amazing, but I remember from the ret thread on ej

So far EfaE works on:
- Rotface slime spray
- Rotface Small and Big Oozes
- Festergut: Gaseous blight (and maybe blighted spores)
- PP volatile ooze eruption from volatile ooze
- PP expunged gas from gas cloud
- PP Slime puddle dmg
- Taldaram Empowered Flare
- Valanar Empowered Shock Vortex
- LK Infest
- LK Shadow Trap
- LK Pain and Suffering

Could not test Marrowgar, LDW or DBS. Really bummed it did not work on Sindy.


It works on any targetted magic damage. I would think the pain and suffering alone would make it worthwhile for HLK.

http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t106276-ret ... ost1771910
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:11 pm

The problem with E4E is that it's so fight-specific. Just running through my last ICC log, here's the DPS I'd put out with 2/2 E4E:

Marrowgar: 139486 Coldflame damage taken in 2:06, for a potential DPS return of 133 DPS (provided it works on Coldflame)
LDW: 588046 shadow damage from a variety of sources in 5:06, 231 DPS
Gunship: Not really applicable
DBS: No magic damage taken
Rotface: 54019 damage taken due to Slime Spray in 2:48, 39 DPS. Ignoring oozes here since damage on them is irrelevant given that Judging from 30 yards on cooldown is more than enough to keep aggro.
Fester: 207030 Gaseous Blight damage in 3:12, and another 150k in Bloat/Blight damage. 129 or 223 DPS depending on whether B/B is included.
PP: 52k damage from ooze/gas in 5:26, 19 DPS.
Taldaram: 28k damage from flare/vortex in 3:25, 16 DPS - could be interesting if it worked on Shadow Lance though (I was tanking Keleseth), that would be 438 DPS.
BQL: The list you gave doesn't list Shroud of Sorrow; without that it's essentially 0 DPS, if it worked on SoS it would be around 150 DPS

I don't have a sindragosa or LK parse for this week, but given the information you posted I suspect it would be worthless on Sindragosa and strong on LK.


So the value varies significantly from fight to fight; it can be as low as 0 DPS, or as high as ~100 DPS per point. On the other hand, Crusade gives a consistent boost of around ~100 DPS per point.

I could perhaps see an argument for picking up E4E instead of JotP for a threat-heavy build, and maybe as an alternative to Improved Judgement if the extra range doesn't appeal to you. But I'd certainly not peg it as a mandatory talent.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:43 pm

I was tanking sindragosa hc 25 today, and I can say, for hardmodes like that, a well timed WoG can safe your life, more then once. With Protector if the innocent it's even interesting to use a 1 or 2 point WoG, since you get the 4K extra nontheless. Eternal glory sometimes lets you heal 2 or 3 times in a row, certainly handy. In cata we can also spec for the talent wich basicly gives you 60% extra crit when using WoG on low health.

I used the current WoG build with one point less in Shield of the templar, wich I put in Gcr for some utility. But this option was mentioned earlier in this guide. I swaped the hotr/judgement glyph slot for WoG as well, since it's rated pretty low on threat. So I used SoT, Sotr, and WoG.

The way I see it, these mechanics are going to be pretty important in cata hard modes. And if threat is as little a problem as it is now, I would gladly spec/glyph into those things.

If you take a look at the current threat talents, we basicly we 3 good ones, 1 utility one ( Gcr ) and some bad ones. If you look at stats hit and expertise are rated off the charts, and we can reforge them to desired numbers. Now personally I would much rather run with a full utility/healing spec, and reforge some avoidance into hit/expertise, then specing for some bad threat talents and then gearing for some avoidance.

For me personally the priorities always where health/armor/healing/utility, then threat, and then avoidance. I completely respect ppl who put threat last. But I am always puzzled by ppl who buy threat in any other place then by sacrificing avoidance, since In my opinion, that's the only place to buy it.

This is for hard modes progression obviously. It's partially speculation, and my flavour ofc. But I wanted to share my idea.

EDIT:

A different subject: In my opinion you should raise the status of the Divinity glyph to optional. If you have consecration and focused shield, and there is nothing to stun, it's a good glyph to help healers who are still learning to manage their mana . 4K mana is pretty good.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:43 pm

Updated descriptions of Glyph of Divinity and Eye for an Eye.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby pfunkmort » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:34 am

I agree with your assessment theck. I had it to use on HLK, and I ended up ret because of roster issues, but I think it would be okay there. One other note though - that quote in my previous post was from a ret's pov, so his sindragosa comment probably doesn't take into account tank damage (breaths).

Either way, after leveling an alt prot on another server to run dungeons with a friend, I think eternal glory is just about the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and probably as good a place for points as any. That's not from a threat pov, I just love it.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Kihra » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:40 am

pfunkmort wrote:I agree with your assessment theck. I had it to use on HLK, and I ended up ret because of roster issues, but I think it would be okay there. One other note though - that quote in my previous post was from a ret's pov, so his sindragosa comment probably doesn't take into account tank damage (breaths).

Either way, after leveling an alt prot on another server to run dungeons with a friend, I think eternal glory is just about the most amazing thing I've ever seen, and probably as good a place for points as any. That's not from a threat pov, I just love it.


I agree! Eternal Glory is one of the most fun talents I have ever had in this game. There is nothing like seeing it proc four times in a row on Sindragosa while one of your Holy paladins is tombed and the other Holy paladin has Unchained Magic and just being like "DON'T WORRY GUYS I'VE GOT THIS."

People who think WoG is worthless just aren't using it right. Maybe they forget about the protective shield... maybe they aren't doing hard enough content where healer throughput actually gets compromised. I've used WoG on shamblers to survive an Enraged hit with an absorb shield. I've used it on Sindragosa to negate much of the Frost Breath damage in the last phase. My healers in the shadow realm on Halion kept asking "Why aren't you spiking at all?" because I was absorbing the dragon's breaths with WoGs.

It is just so much fun and takes real timing and skill to use. As long as they keep us so far ahead on threat relative to DPS, we'll have ample opportunity to use it on progression fights.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Olen » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:22 am

IME the WoG shield is the only part worth mentioning, and its hardly big enough where I'd tell my healers to chill while I negate a tiny chunk of incoming from a heroic boss. What content are you tanking?

Yes its better than not having the shield, No its not that awesome.

If you're trading a 3 HoPo shield slam crit for something, you should be rewarded for the trade-off in threat with something good, not mediocre.

IE, the other day I offtanked HSindy25, so I just spent the entire ground phase healing the MT and managed to do 128k healing the whole fight. Hardly OP.

Were this the pre-patch wow, before our incoming damage went through the roof, the self-shield would have been more impressive. Now that ICC is much harder, the shield amount is not enough. It'd be nice if PotI heals dropped BEFORE the WoG heal and shield as well.

Having said that ICC and Halion seem to have been nerfed so maybe it will be enough.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:34 pm

is there a way to track the amount of the guarded by the light shield, and how much of it actually absorbs before the 6 seconds fall off? i cant seem to find it on WOL or on recount. i see overheal, but i want to see how much of that actually gets put to use
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:19 pm

WoG is really not mediocre if you time it right. This is not something designed to help with healer mana or with overall healing done. It's an emergency button, just like a minor cooldown, or a trinket.

Ofc it's nice to use the absorb if you have a period of heavy damage. But for a predictable spike it could be better to use it afterwards, otherwise it doesn't use the PotI proc. Especially on 85, where we can spec into crit chance for WoG on low health. For now it's only interesting to use the absorb in that case, if you're EH is either just too low, or if you are going to build more holypower in those 6 seconds before the big damage spike, and use another heal after it.

If you look at emergency situations on low health, a 9-13K heal is really not mediocre. That's all extra health you have there. That's bigger then most trinkets, and on a ridiculously low cooldown.

With AD gone we no longer have the luxery of sitting on low health and not responding to it. It's just far too dangerous. And you cannot always use all your CD's on that. In 3.3 my AD used to proc all the time, but I rarely died. Our dk always made fun of it, coz he died a lot less, then my AD proced, because he knows when to time his heals, and CD's, he's just never on low health to begin with. Now WoG gives us a minor version of this, and if you use it right, it gives us a little taste of that power.

My advice is spec into it, get a healthbar in the middle of your screen, and test it out. Maybe you will like it, maybe it's not for you. But don't just sit there thinking it's bad for your threat etc, without trying it out. Because threat is hardly an issue in the situations where you would use this.

Besides, like I mentioned before. If you need threat just reforge some avoidance into expertise. That's most likely cheaper then specing into bad threat talents, and glyphing into bad threat glyphs. Plus it's just a more interesting way to buy it.

Only problem I have with it so far is, if you spec all the way, you will lose PoJ. Painfull. That's a personal choice, but I think with a boot enchant the pain will be less.
Last edited by Awyndel on Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby RedAces » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:27 pm

hey,

why does everyone take 2/2 "Improved Judegment" ? The range bonus is nice, but trading it for 6% haste ? No ! I'd rather have 2/2 Reckoning + Divine Guardian + 1/3 JotP than 2/2 imp judgement... (my specc: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#s0oZGMhcRddRRuc:scosqrzMm).

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:50 pm

Well it's just one of those utility things that you have to try out to see it's use. It's mostly used to make the pull easier, and to pick up mobs a lot easier. It's an extra ranged spell. It makes kiting super easy. It's certainly not usefull on every fight, but it should probably be included into allround specs.

Remember you don't really need to give up reckoning or DG for it. Those are just too good. Normally you give up SotP, JotP, or crusade. Crusade rates a bit higher but neither of them are very impressive talents at the moment.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:24 am

Theckhd, don't forget to update this based on your latest matlab results. Especially the glyph of hotr, which seems to have gone from recommended to worthless (and crusader strike glyph now being elevated in its place).
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Metherlance » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:28 am

econ21 wrote:Theckhd, don't forget to update this based on your latest matlab results. Especially the glyph of hotr, which seems to have gone from recommended to worthless (and crusader strike glyph now being elevated in its place).


The changes are already in the graphs. And in the conclusion. :)
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:55 am

Metherlance wrote:The changes are already in the graphs. And in the conclusion. :)


Are you confusing this thread with the matlab one? Because the third post in this thread does not seem to have the changes (or a graph), viz.

Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous (Threat, Recommended/Situational) - This glyph is actually quite potent, and turns out to be our best AoE tanking glyph. If you're in need of an AoE threat boost, this is definitely one place to get it. It clocks in at around 100 DPS per target, or 115 DPS for a single target.
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