4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

[Lolpaladins]

Curious why the "standard" WoG build uses 3/3 Rule of Law instead of a 2nd point in reckoning if reckoning's second point is still significantly more threat/dps than RoL. Unless you consider 5% chance to crit on WoG more important for (unreliable) survivability than 100+ dps. (people have spent thousands of gold in the past for 100pt dps increases).

If it was 0/32/9 it'd make more sense I think.

(And since I personally like Hallowed Ground, I don't even have 2 points in RoL, but obviously that isn't "standard" advice)

[Awyndel]

Prolly hasn't been updated yet. Most raid builds now remove the 2nd point from Guarded by the light, and put that into reckoning. This is because if WoG is on a 20 sec cd, it is rarely used to overheal, and mostly as emergency heal, hence the absorb is mostly wasted.

The WoG glyph has also become less popular because of this, CS or hotr would be advisable.

[theckhd]

Curious why the "standard" WoG build uses 3/3 Rule of Law instead of a 2nd point in reckoning if reckoning's second point is still significantly more threat/dps than RoL. Unless you consider 5% chance to crit on WoG more important for (unreliable) survivability than 100+ dps. (people have spent thousands of gold in the past for 100pt dps increases).

You answered your own question: For most players, the extra survivability is more important than 100+ DPS. Vengeance makes threat trivial, so almost any reasonable threat->survivability trade is worth making.

Most raid builds now remove the 2nd point from Guarded by the light, and put that into reckoning. This is because if WoG is on a 20 sec cd, it is rarely used to overheal, and mostly as emergency heal, hence the absorb is mostly wasted.

I'm not sure where you get that impression, because it's certainly not true of many tanks clearing heroic modes.

[Vort]

I'm not sure where you get that impression, because it's certainly not true of many tanks clearing heroic modes.

^

The overheal shield it provides is life saving at times.

[Treck]

Most raid builds now remove the 2nd point from Guarded by the light, and put that into reckoning. This is because if WoG is on a 20 sec cd, it is rarely used to overheal, and mostly as emergency heal, hence the absorb is mostly wasted.

The 2nd point is the important part.
1 point only doesnt give WoG the absorb.
WoG is not only used in panic at low hp, in fact most of the times i use it FOR its absorb, right before some big attack.
That way its like reducing a big hit by about 30k, that means a lot, and will in effect also make the healers feel your not taking much damage, and wont waste mana on fast heals, as they would if they would see you go low fast, and sometimes start their heal even if youve had time to pop your WoG on you to heal, they will still have spent more mana than they would have had to.
In 4.2 guarded by the light doesnt affect holy shield, meaning that its even less usefull, but still. If the absorb would be given even with only one point, id think about removing it in 4.2, but since it wont, 2 points will still be pretty important.

[inthedrops]

I only have one pont in WoG for the reason Awyndel mentioned. Treckie perfectly explained why 2/2 is great. But I stopped bothering with it once they added the 20 second cooldown. I used to be a WoG whore before that.

[Awyndel]

Sorry I just had that impression. I copied the spec from you actually theck, when the patch came out . It's all up to preference I guess. I like saving it for emergency heals, I have plenty of cd's to plan ahead with, from myself or other raid members.

I guess the wog spec has rol for the crit on wog.

[theckhd]

Sorry I just had that impression. I copied the spec from you actually theck, when the patch came out .

I've been running 1/2 Reck and 2/2 GbtL since 4.0.3 or earlier. The only change I made when 4.1 came out was to drop EG for SotP.

[Aikanaro]

Hey, I was just wondering what your thoughts are on the new holy shield and its affect on using wog, will GbtL still be worth getting specially now with the 20 second cooldown it has? and what you would do with said points if you changed them.

[Treck]

In 4.2 guarded by the light doesnt affect holy shield, meaning that its even less usefull, but still. If the absorb would be given even with only one point, id think about removing it in 4.2, but since it wont, 2 points will still be pretty important.

[Brutalus]

Hey, I was just wondering what your thoughts are on the new holy shield and its affect on using wog, will GbtL still be worth getting specially now with the 20 second cooldown it has? and what you would do with said points if you changed them.

Almost definately worth 2/2 just to be safe initially in my opinion, at least for heroics, particularly when going in without Firelands HC gear. When learning new encounters in an instance that you're "undergeared" for on heroic (Firelands heroic gear is like 398 or something?) I think it's better to be more on the survival side while your healers and even the rest of your raid adapt to changes than it is to doing a couple hundred more dps. Maybe when getting closer to a kill on encounters where I don't really need the shield outside of very special circumstances (dead healers) I would remove the points from it in order to maximise dps - it's not like you're locked into a spec once you've respecced.

I guess the first spare point would go into Reckoning while the other would be best used in either JotP or Hallowed Ground (to make its mana cost more convenient).

[Awyndel]

Think I copied it from the mathlab threat tests for 4.1. Either way, I like it this way.

[Masanori]

WoG is not only used in panic at low hp, in fact most of the times i use it FOR its absorb, right before some big attack.
That way its like reducing a big hit by about 30k, that means a lot, and will in effect also make the healers feel your not taking much damage, and wont waste mana on fast heals, as they would if they would see you go low fast, and sometimes start their heal even if youve had time to pop your WoG on you to heal, they will still have spent more mana than they would have had to.

Agreed there. I sometimes use Divine Protection and GbtL in combination for huge attacks like Nefarian's electrocutes as preparation for when Guardian of Ancient Kings is on cooldown. It's an invaluable ability to have when you're familiar with encounters.

[agetro]

I'm trying to understand 2/2 GbtL. Overhealing turns into an absorb-bubble. At what point is the overhealing taking place? I thought maybe after 100% health, so WoGing at low HP wouldn't give a shield? But it looks like it does. I took 1 point out because I must have misunderstood, but I'll gladly take that 2nd point out of Reckoning to put back in GbtL. Please clarify.

[Xayton]

I'm trying to understand 2/2 GbtL. Overhealing turns into an absorb-bubble. At what point is the overhealing taking place? I thought maybe after 100% health, so WoGing at low HP wouldn't give a shield? But it looks like it does. I took 1 point out because I must have misunderstood, but I'll gladly take that 2nd point out of Reckoning to put back in GbtL. Please clarify.

The overhealing bubble only happens if you are at 100% health. If you are at full when you cast WoG you will get the full heal as a shield, if you are not at 100% and WoG brings you to full, any overhealing will be turned into a shield.

100% + 20k WoG = 20k shield
90% + 20k WoG = 10k shield

Something like that.

[theckhd]

Updated the guide for 4.2. Let me know if you find any errors/oversights.

[Lathdari]

I think that the 'default' build ought to include points in hallowed ground (taking one from reckoning and one from rule of law), because although this is poor for single target, it's strong for AOE, and a 'default' build ought to cover all situations a tank is likely to encounter. I definitely want hallowed ground for Rhyolith, for example.

[Skye1013]

I think that the 'default' build ought to include points in hallowed ground (taking one from reckoning and one from rule of law), because although this is poor for single target, it's strong for AOE, and a 'default' build ought to cover all situations a tank is likely to encounter. I definitely want hallowed ground for Rhyolith, for example.

Check the sections marked "Discretionary Points" and "The Leftovers."

Also:

Note that Crusade and Rule of Law are also both potent threat talents, especially in AoE

So why would you remove the point from Rule of Law since that helps beef up HotR...your primary AoE tanking ability...?

[Lathdari]

I see those sections but:

In tier 3, we have Hallowed Ground, which is a weak single-target DPS increase but a fairly noticeable benefit when AoE tanking due to the mana reduction. However, neither of these are recommended, because in Tier 4 we add Reckoning to the mix. Reckoning is the largest single-target DPS increase available to you at this point.

Why do we prefer a large single-target DPS increase to a fairly noticeable benefit when AoE tanking? (There seems to be an uncharacteristic lack of precision from Theck here, incidentally.) Single-target threat is never an issue, and even though the DPS benefit of Reckoning is large compared to other talents, it's negligible for my raid.

The point of Hallowed Ground is the mana saving, rather than the dps boost (although I'm not sure that a 40% dps boost to Consecration doesn't beat a 10% dps boost to HotR in any case*). The great thing about Consecration for Rhyolith (and similar things apply in other situations) is that you can lay down Consecration when the mobs spawn, then pull them into it. But if you do that with 0/2 in Hallowed Ground, you won't have sufficient mana to consecrate by the second wave.

In another place, Theck says:

Hallowed Ground is a weak DPS increase against single targets, but a more substantial increase to AoE tanking. Many people would argue that the real attraction of the talent is the mana reduction, especially now that Judgement casts are slightly less frequent. That said, most tanks I've talked to have been AoE tanking just fine without Hallowed Ground. Use Consecration in moderation (or not at all in the single-target rotation) and you'll be OK without it.

Certainly you can AoE tank without Hallowed Ground, if you use Consecration in moderation, but why would you? You can just take Hallowed Ground, and then spam Consecration as much as you like. Otherwise, when someone ninja-pulls a pack of Hell Hounds, you find yourself wondering whether or not you can afford to consecrate to pick them up.

Or to take another example, in phase 2 of Ragnaros, you might plausibly want to cast Holy Radiance just after the Molten Seeds explode, followed by Consecration, followed by Holy Wrath for the AoE stun. With 0/2 in Hallowed Ground, you just can't do that - the total cost is 115% of base mana. Certainly, you can get by without it, but I don't see that the alternatives are sufficiently strong to deny yourself the option.

I'm somewhat thinking that the answer might be to take 1/2 Hallowed Ground and leave 3/3 Rule of Law.

*I've just checked, and HotR crits for +50% damage, so a 10% extra crit chance will be roughly 5% extra damage, not 10% as I suggested. That being the case, I think it's clear that Hallowed Ground gives a greater AoE dps boost. Moreover HotR tests for crit separately on each target, so the additional damage isn't giving uniform threat generation (besides being random and therefore not reliable).

[Lathdari]

Completely unrelatedly, I think Glyph of Rebuke ought to at least be mentioned. The mana saving is pretty large (even if probably unnecessary) and it seems worth considering for fights involving interrupts (admittedly only phase 3 Alysrazor in the current tier, but a few bosses in the previous tier, and various trash fights).

[theckhd]

I think that the 'default' build ought to include points in hallowed ground

I disagree. Hallowed Ground just isn't a compelling talent.

The benefit is that you don't have to worry about Consecration's mana cost. It's convenient, but entirely unnecessary. Most situations where you'd want to chain-cast Consecration allow you to, because you're getting larger returns from Sanctuary that cover the extra mana. In addition, you can just intelligently prioritize Judgement. Holy Wrath is mostly useless as an AoE ability, so skipping Holy Wrath and bumping Judgement up in priority when you need mana is entirely feasible.

Hallowed Ground is still a terrible investment for DPS. It's about a 50-60 DPS increase per target. I don't have current numbers, but last time I checked (probably 4.0.6) Rule of Law was nearly 200. Your simple calculation doesn't account for cast frequency, which significantly tips the balance in HotR's favor.

In the Ragnaros example, you'd be much better-off skipping Holy Wrath and casting HR + Cons, because the adds aren't stunnable and Holy Wrath is terrible damage because it doesn't scale with anything. A single HotR will do more damage than Holy Wrath.

In the end, there's just no good reason to take Hallowed Ground. We're perfectly capable of handling AoE situations without it, and it isn't a huge improvement even if we did. The biggest advantage is in ease of use, but that's completely unnecessary with smart play. And there are more influential talents that we can take (Reck, RoL) that benefit us a larger portion of the time.

I didn't realize I left out Glyph of Rebuke. I'll add an entry for that soon.

[Lathdari]

Glyphed Holy Wrath definitely does stun those adds (the molten elementals). I do it every time. See Rokh's comment here, if you won't take my word for it.

I don't like to doubt your theorycrafting, but isn't that 50-60 dps number the number from your single target sim? But the consecration damage per target will be higher for AoE tanking, because (a) it's higher on the priority list and (b) inquisition has more up-time, and correspondingly the buff from Hallowed Ground will be greater.

Edit: Here's a log extract showing Holy Wrath stunning the molten elementals - they are 'afflicted' by Holy Wrath, then 1.5s later it Holy Wrath 'fades' from them:

[23:15:37.551] Lathdari casts Holy Wrath
[23:15:37.622] Lathdari Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 596
[23:15:37.622] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Lathdari
[23:15:37.622] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Lathdari
[23:15:37.622] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Lathdari
[23:15:37.661] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Lathdari
[23:15:37.661] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Lathdari
[23:15:37.800] Lathdari Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 595
[23:15:37.800] Lathdari Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 596
[23:15:37.800] Lathdari Holy Wrath Molten Elemental *893*
[23:15:37.800] Lathdari Holy Wrath Molten Elemental *893*
[23:15:37.800] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Lathdari
[23:15:37.840] Lathdari Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 596
[23:15:37.914] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Lathdari
[23:15:37.918] Lathdari Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 595
[23:15:37.918] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Lathdari
[23:15:38.012] Lathdari Holy Wrath Molten Elemental *893*
[23:15:39.166] Lathdari's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:39.166] Lathdari's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:39.166] Lathdari's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:39.217] Lathdari's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:39.217] Lathdari's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:39.671] Lathdari Holy Wrath Ragnaros *964*
[23:15:40.835] Lathdari's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:41.036] Lathdari's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:41.036] Lathdari's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:42.424] Argernal casts Holy Wrath
[23:15:42.576] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Argernal
[23:15:42.576] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Argernal
[23:15:42.576] Argernal Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 1485
[23:15:42.576] Argernal Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 1485
[23:15:42.576] Argernal Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 1485
[23:15:42.582] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Argernal
[23:15:42.684] Argernal Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 1485
[23:15:42.684] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Argernal
[23:15:42.771] Argernal's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:42.785] Molten Elemental afflicted by Holy Wrath from Argernal
[23:15:42.894] Argernal Holy Wrath Molten Elemental 1485
[23:15:43.319] Argernal's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:44.033] Argernal's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:44.260] Argernal's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:44.260] Argernal's Holy Wrath fades from Molten Elemental
[23:15:44.314] Argernal Holy Wrath Ragnaros 1604

[Lathdari]

I don't have current numbers, but last time I checked (probably 4.0.6) Rule of Law was nearly 200.

Is that per point per target? That seems well off. The holy component of my HotR hits for around 6k. A crit adds 3k, so a 5% extra crit chance adds an average of 150 per HotR or 50 dps. My gear isn't the best, but I doubt that anyone is doing four times better! Just to check, Lazeil of Paragon, with an average ilevel of 390, averages 8k with her HotR holy component, which means each point of RoL would add 67 dps.

[Hrobertgar]

You are going to be spamming HotR and it generates HoPo which benefits the rest of your rotation much more than any mana savings from consecration.

But yea, I loved glyphed Holy Wrath for Raggy. I use it on both my pallies and make the Holy Pally in gorup 2 run with it. When ehaling Raggy I always run left unless the hammer is left (then I run right). I use Wrath to stun the furthest TWO adds, then Judge/shock one and HoJ is for good measure. The ranged on that side can usually polish off BOTH adds before HoJ wears off.

I also like Wrath for the seed phases and for the big adds. When the add horde approaches during seeds, a well timed wrath can save a lot of raid dmg (I do it on both my toons). The big adds are also subject to wrath, which can be a nice momentary breather for the tanks, especially if the two adds are close enough to hit both of them at once

[theckhd]

Glyphed Holy Wrath definitely does stun those adds (the molten elementals). I do it every time. See Rokh's comment here, if you won't take my word for it.

Hm.. maybe you're right. I've never bothered to try on normal. I'm fairly certain it doesn't work on heroic though, which is the last time I tried it.

I don't like to doubt your theorycrafting, but isn't that 50-60 dps number the number from your single target sim? But the consecration damage per target will be higher for AoE tanking, because (a) it's higher on the priority list and (b) inquisition has more up-time, and correspondingly the buff from Hallowed Ground will be greater.

It was from the single-target sim. Consecration damage per target will increase due to Inq, but that's still only 30% (so 65-85 DPS). It should see an additional (but small) bump due to the elevated priority in the AoE queue.

Since my memory's not the best, let's double-check. It may be that the ~200 DPS value I'm remembering is for multiple targets. I've tweaked the AoE simulation so that it calculates values for several different talent setups. Here's the raw results, afterwards we'll check the numbers.

Code: Select all

939/SoT build

                                          Primary                                      E    I    mps   mps
  Q#  Priority                            DPS        2      3      4      5      6     %    %          @6 
   1  SotR>CS>AS>J                        21823       0      0      0      0      0   0.0   0.0  1323  3336
   2  SotR>HotR>AS>J                      20077    2579   2579   2579   2579   2579   0.0   0.0  1323  3336
   3  SotR>HotR>AS>J>Cons                 20361    2884   2884   2884   2884   2884   0.0   0.0  1032  3044
   4  SotR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW              20399    2937   2911   2901   2897   2895   0.0   0.0   866  2878
   5  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW  20940    3320   3291   3281   3277   3274   0.0  40.5   855  2868
   6  Inq>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW               18499    3917   3882   3870   3864   3861   0.0  94.2   830  2843
   7  Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>J>HW               18326    3967   3929   3915   3909   3906   0.0  94.2   744  2756
   8  Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J               17819    3985   3935   3917   3909   3904   0.0  94.1   587  2600
   9  Inq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J               17715    4001   3950   3932   3924   3919   0.0  94.0   571  2584
  10  iInq>SotR>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J         19610    3705   3659   3643   3635   3631   0.0  72.6   600  2613
  11  iInq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J              18186    4092   4040   4022   4014   4009   0.0  95.4   565  2578
  12  iInq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J              18066    4110   4057   4038   4029   4025   0.0  95.3   547  2559
  13  HotR>Inq>AS>Cons>HW>J               17902    4067   4017   3999   3991   3987   0.0  94.2   558  2571
  14  HotR>Inq>Cons>AS>HW>J               17815    4095   4044   4026   4018   4013   0.0  94.1   537  2550


939/SoT build, with HG

                                          Primary                                      E    I    mps   mps
  Q#  Priority                            DPS        2      3      4      5      6     %    %          @6 
   1  SotR>CS>AS>J                        21823       0      0      0      0      0   0.0   0.0  1323  3336
   2  SotR>HotR>AS>J                      20077    2579   2579   2579   2579   2579   0.0   0.0  1323  3336
   3  SotR>HotR>AS>J>Cons                 20481    3004   3004   3004   3004   3004   0.0   0.0  1262  3275
   4  SotR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW              20518    3056   3030   3021   3016   3014   0.0   0.0  1095  3108
   5  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW  21071    3451   3422   3412   3407   3405   0.0  40.5  1085  3098
   6  Inq>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW               18656    4074   4039   4026   4021   4017   0.0  94.2  1064  3077
   7  Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>J>HW               18500    4141   4103   4090   4083   4080   0.0  94.2  1004  3017
   8  Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J               17993    4159   4109   4091   4083   4079   0.0  94.1   848  2861
   9  Inq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J               17899    4185   4134   4116   4108   4103   0.0  94.0   847  2860
  10  iInq>SotR>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J         19772    3867   3821   3805   3797   3793   0.0  72.6   859  2872
  11  iInq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J              18369    4275   4223   4205   4196   4192   0.0  95.4   837  2850
  12  iInq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J              18255    4299   4246   4227   4219   4214   0.0  95.3   829  2842
  13  HotR>Inq>AS>Cons>HW>J               18078    4242   4192   4174   4166   4162   0.0  94.2   820  2833
  14  HotR>Inq>Cons>AS>HW>J               18001    4281   4230   4212   4204   4200   0.0  94.1   817  2829


939/SoT build, w/o RoL

                                          Primary                                      E    I    mps   mps
  Q#  Priority                            DPS        2      3      4      5      6     %    %          @6 
   1  SotR>CS>AS>J                        21223       0      0      0      0      0   0.0   0.0  1323  3336
   2  SotR>HotR>AS>J                      19820    2408   2408   2408   2408   2408   0.0   0.0  1323  3336
   3  SotR>HotR>AS>J>Cons                 20104    2713   2713   2713   2713   2713   0.0   0.0  1032  3044
   4  SotR>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW              20140    2765   2739   2730   2725   2723   0.0   0.0   866  2878
   5  SDSotR>ISotR>Inq>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW  20657    3126   3097   3086   3082   3079   0.0  40.5   855  2868
   6  Inq>HotR>AS>J>Cons>HW               18179    3688   3653   3640   3635   3631   0.0  94.2   830  2843
   7  Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>J>HW               18006    3737   3699   3686   3680   3676   0.0  94.2   744  2756
   8  Inq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J               17499    3756   3705   3688   3680   3675   0.0  94.1   587  2600
   9  Inq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J               17396    3773   3722   3704   3695   3691   0.0  94.0   571  2584
  10  iInq>SotR>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J         19308    3492   3446   3429   3422   3418   0.0  72.6   600  2613
  11  iInq>HotR>AS>Cons>HW>J              17859    3858   3806   3787   3779   3774   0.0  95.4   565  2578
  12  iInq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J              17739    3875   3822   3803   3795   3790   0.0  95.3   547  2559
  13  HotR>Inq>AS>Cons>HW>J               17576    3832   3782   3765   3757   3752   0.0  94.2   558  2571
  14  HotR>Inq>Cons>AS>HW>J               17488    3860   3810   3792   3783   3779   0.0  94.1   537  2550


For the moment, let's look at secondary DPS/target for 4 targets and the usual AoE rotation of Inq>HotR>Cons>AS>HW>J (#9).

Code: Select all

Default (0/2 HG, 3/3 RoL): 3932 DPS/target
+ HG    (2/2 HG, 3/3 RoL): 4116 DPS/target
-RoL    (0/2 HG, 0/3 RoL): 3704 DPS/target


So the 2 points in Hallowed Ground add an average of (4116-3932)/2 = 92 DPS/target.
The 3 points in Rule of Law add an average of (3932-3704)/3 = 76 DPS/target.

So it looks like you're right, and Hallowed Ground is a slightly better talent for AoE damage. It falls woefully behind for single-targets, however, and RoL also buffs WoG, which is a survivability benefit. I still don't think that there are enough AoE situations in raid content to make the extra 20-40 DPS worth giving up higher single-target DPS and the WoG crit.