4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Sansin » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:54 am

First, I find the information on this site extremely useful. I am new to here and as a pally tank so I may be in the wrong section, please forgive me. I looked up your toon in armory and noticed that your hit was at 1.6, which seems very low to me. Is hit not important anymore?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Epimer » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:28 pm

Threat is trivialised by Vengeance stacks, and taunts can no longer miss. So hit is unimportant right now, yes.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Extermi » Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:22 am

theckhd wrote:I highly doubt that the glyph doesn't affect SoI. Not that it's impossible, but you'd need a pretty large data set to convincingly show a statistically significant 5% difference. Certainly not something you can estimate just from whacking a dummy.


The numbers were all the same - no variation. I will re-run this to exclude any mistakes on my part.

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:17 am

Extermi wrote:
theckhd wrote:I highly doubt that the glyph doesn't affect SoI. Not that it's impossible, but you'd need a pretty large data set to convincingly show a statistically significant 5% difference. Certainly not something you can estimate just from whacking a dummy.


The numbers were all the same - no variation. I will re-run this to exclude any mistakes on my part.

Extermi


Oh, there's no variation on SoI procs? If that's the case, then even a small sample would be convincing. If you can upload a log, that would be great. In fact, I'd love to see some testing of SoI in a variety of different situations (with/without Divinity, with/without Glyph) just to see how they interact.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby tullock » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:43 pm

Ive read in several places that taunt cannot miss since cata came out, and so far i cant recall having seen hand of reckoning miss, but righteous defense absolutely can miss, i saw it happen and screen shotted it the other day because i had previously assumed it would fall under the taunts cant miss thing.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Extermi » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:49 am

theckhd wrote:Oh, there's no variation on SoI procs? If that's the case, then even a small sample would be convincing. If you can upload a log, that would be great. In fact, I'd love to see some testing of SoI in a variety of different situations (with/without Divinity, with/without Glyph) just to see how they interact.


I paid a quick visit to my friend the target dummy this morning. My results concerning SoL heal were:

- The healing number is constant, plus/minus 1
- Healing is NOT affected by the SoI glyph
- Healing IS affected by the divinity talent
- Healing is affected by AP: BoM increases it, BoK to a lesser extend
- That goes in-line with my observation that Vengeance increases the self healing

I am sorry that I did not have the time to capture a combatlog to allow further analysis of the coefficients, but what I take home is that the SoI glyph is a weaker choice than the WoG glyph (5% WoG and Holy Radiance vs 10% WoG increase).

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:29 am

I ran some tests yesterday that seem to agree with your results. Once I finish analyzing that data, I'll update the guide appropriately.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:44 am

Hey Theck, I just thought of something that may be worth including in your guide. On the Chimeron fight, the Holy/Prot Last Word spec seems very solid and useful in theory. Might want to include that for one additional reason to spec that other than "reactive" WoGing.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:41 am

It depends on how you execute the fight, I think. Certainly Last Word will have a larger effect on that fight than on others. However, the overheal bubble is pretty significant for the off-tank, who's being topped off between Double Attacks. So Rule of Law would have a slight advantage for that role. We alternate Double tanks, so each tank ends up filling both roles about half the time.

I've added a mention of that fight in particular in the "WoG build" section for good measure, though.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby kristoferpally » Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:27 am

Does it look like there will be any changes to the 'standard' raiding build with 4.0.6? For one it seems like seals will be more of our damage and with us getting rebuke GC can be dropped for seals of the pure.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:33 am

kristoferpally wrote:Does it look like there will be any changes to the 'standard' raiding build with 4.0.6? For one it seems like seals will be more of our damage and with us getting rebuke GC can be dropped for seals of the pure.


Probably nothing significant. I haven't finished the simulations yet, but I think at best it will give us a little more flexibility. SotP doesn't affect Seal of Inisght, which makes it irrelevant for a lot of progression raiding.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 pm

theckhd wrote:Probably nothing significant.

Patch 4.0.6 Official Notes wrote:Crusader Strike, Holy Shock, and Hammer of the Righteous no longer incorrectly grant Holy Power from a missed attack.


You spoke too soon, Theck. :cry:
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:32 pm

Gaxby wrote:
theckhd wrote:Probably nothing significant.

Patch 4.0.6 Official Notes wrote:Crusader Strike, Holy Shock, and Hammer of the Righteous no longer incorrectly grant Holy Power from a missed attack.


You spoke too soon, Theck. :cry:


Still doesn't change anything with regards to talents. It's not that significant a threat nerf, it's just more annoying to model.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Annihilus » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:42 am

theckhd wrote:Still doesn't change anything with regards to talents. It's not that significant a threat nerf, it's just more annoying to model.


It does have me wondering whether there will be any level of hit/expertise that would put one in danger of losing Holy Shield by having too many failed attacks building up Holy Power.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:07 am

The chance to miss, in the absolute worst case of 0 exp and 0% hit, is still only 28.5%. To lose Holy Shield, you would have to miss 6 Crusader Strikes in a row, which has a probability of 0.285^6=5.4e-4, or 0.054%.

Can it happen? Sure, anything's possible. Is it going to happen very often? No.

You have about a 5% chance of missing 4 out of 6 (binopdf(4,6,0.285)), which would prevent you from using a full 3-point SotR or WoG. You'd still be able to refresh Holy Shield, but at a cost. A 1- or 2-point WoG would probably be the best way to handle that situation. And EG procs may mitigate some of that.

And again, this is worst-case. Raise that to 2% hit and 10 expertise, and it drops the chance of missing 4/6 to 2% and 6/6 to 0.01%.
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