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4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Goodheart » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:46 am

Keep in mind though that threat is currently not really an issue, and GC does provide more utility then reckoning.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Derrickster » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:59 am

I guess you have a point, so the real question is: Is the extra utility worth losing the extra threat of reckoning?

-the utility from AS comes from its interrupt/silence. Interrupt: useful for interrupting big casts/heals but while doing your rotation you can't really rely on that to be up everytime, and at that point having an interrupter (if you have one ready just works out better) with no interrupter I think I would use my threat lead to kinda wait a GCD or 2 and make sure I have AS up before the cast is giong to go off. The interrupt is also useful for the accidental interrupt not only on bosses but trash pulls. Silence: great for positioning casters but with proper CC and/or shielding the correct targets and the pull this can USUALLY be avoided.

-the threat from reckoning. Proc: reckoning procs off of blocking, and we gain block from mastery of which we are stacking right now. so in essence more mastery = more possible uptime for reckoning = more threat (I don't know if reckoning has an internal CD and if it does how long, I'll take a look around and see if it's on here anywhere) To top it all off this threat is possibly not required because tank threat is already high.


so my problem with dropping threat is I run with an over-zealous DW frost DK all the time. His threat is kind of rediculous so I think at this point I'm still going to stick with the extra threat vs the situational utility.

If I'm missing anything here let me know =]
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Derrickster » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:16 am

I found these posts from Theck's MATLAB thread (granted these are from july, but I don't think they are too outdated although I might be wrong)

-these posts are still just conserning threat, and has nothing to do with the utility of Grand Crusader
"The next big talent is Reckoning, which holds a commanding lead over the rest of the talents in a 9C9 rotation. It gets considerably better in an AoE rotation because the incoming attack rate goes up, but the damage output gained is only against your primary target."
"Grand Crusader is almost low enough to fall into the "weak" category. The slew of adjustments and tweaks to other abilities simply made many of them almost as good as AS, and the 939 rotation doesn't have a lot of room for free-styling. The priority simulations show that using GC procs immediately is a DPS loss, and fitting them into the 939 structure is just too limited for this talent to shine."

If there is a post discussing the utility of Grand Crusader I would really like to see it (I couldn't find one) and if there is not we should get one started because that seems like a relatively big deal considering its minor threat contribution.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:11 am

Well I currently still run a lot of hcs and progression fights in 10 mans. And I have come across several situations where a proc let me pull off an interupt somebody else failed, or where a proc let me pick up adds easier. Though I have had the most use of it doing more aoe tps/dps on trash packs or add packs on boss fights.

For me this is utility enough. You have to make a choice based on your own situation.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:17 pm

Awyndel wrote:Saw Lazeil there dropping 1 point reckoning to get 2/2 grand crusader. For adds and interupts I would asume.

Perhaps an idea to consider.

Yeah, that's a move I've been considering for about a week as well. I'm not raiding again until at least Jan 3rd or so though (holiday/family obligations), so I haven't gotten around to respeccing. Single-target threat is still a joke for the most part, and having GC available more often is pretty convenient. There are several fights where I drop it from my rotation entirely to try and use it as a reactive interrupt. Usually just as a backup, but there have been a few clutch ones that managed to prevent a wipe.

In fact, the shift to WoG-heavy rotations has thrown a wrench into a lot of current theorycraft, which has been based around maintaining 939. Once you assume that you're soaking HP with WoG, a lot of things go out the window. I'm hoping to address this in the near future, once real life activities settle down a bit.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Derrickster » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:28 pm

Is it possible that dropping a point in Seals of the Pure is a better option then reckoning because it is less tps per point? Or does SotP proc on AoE things like HotR making it more valuable for AoE threat? (I was under the assumption now that HotR doesn't spread our seal stacks that it only proc'd seal damage on your main target... but this is just an assumption of course and I have not tested it at all.)
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:43 pm

It would be, if I had any points in SotP to begin with. :P I already dropped that for Eternal Glory long ago.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Derrickster » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:45 pm

Have you taken a look at the spec that I posted yet? and also, would you mind giving me a link to the one you are using? I'd like to see where you put the other point in SotP =]
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:07 pm

Derrickster wrote:Have you taken a look at the spec that I posted yet? and also, would you mind giving me a link to the one you are using? I'd like to see where you put the other point in SotP =]


Yes, but I don't really see much of an advantage over any of the specs in the guide. I'd rather have 2/2 GbtL or 2/2 Grand Crusader than that point in Hallowed Ground in pretty much every situation I can think of.

Armory link in my sig is now updated and should be working as intended. Once I get back to a raid-worthy computer, I'll probably be making the Reckoning->GrCr shift that we were discussing earlier.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Derrickster » Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:25 pm

I had the point in Hallowed Ground to take the edge off hitting consecrate when it came up in the priority. But I only ever did one test on a target dummy so it's possible that my mana problems weren't a normality.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:02 am

I've been having that problem with concecrate. Even if i hit it once, and it's not an aoe situation where i get hit, or i don't judge/DP fast, I get mana problems.

My solution is just to not concecrate unless i'm in a aoe situation where i get hit.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Derrickster » Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:19 pm

That's why I had the one point in Hallowed Ground, because I was following the 939 priority of cons>HW but if I switch HW to above it, even if Grand Crusader never procs with the two 15sec CDs of AS and HW I never have to hit cons unless I think I need to (which is almost never). But with how much of a joke threat is there is no harm dropping the very minescule amount of tps by putting cons>HW which frees up that point.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:46 pm

I just ran heroic Grim Batol and Stonecore, two of the harder heroics, without hitting Consecrate at all. I've just taught myself to ignore the button, and I don't miss it. HotR is more AoE threat than we need just by itself.

I'll use it the next time I'm fighting more the six mobs at once.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:49 am

Well keep in mind the priority of Conc, as, hw is in theory.

Personally I can't put that in practice. Perhaps concecrate once on the pull when you still have full mana, but that's about it. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Gaxby » Thu Dec 30, 2010 10:16 am

theckhd wrote:NOTE: This guide is written for 4.0.1, not 4.0.3a. I will slowly be updating this for Cataclysm and level 85.


I was wondering, Theck, exactly how much of this guide is relevant for patch 4.0.3a? I would like to make a suggestion: do what you did for your MATLAB thread. Put a tag before each section not yet updated such as "this section is not yet updated for 4.0.3a".
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