Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby Harmacy » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:47 am

Since I have little to do with my Paladin's offspec for now, I want to create a tanking spec that is aimed towards max DPS in 5-mans. I've been swapping out a few pieces of gear to push out some more damage, but I want to take it further. (Right now I swap out my weapon for a slow DPS weapon (one with arm pen eww), my armor trinket for my Greatness deck, and my raiding shield (Neverending Winter with +18 stam) for Crystal Plated Vanguard with +81 SBV)

This is not a raiding spec, I would never ever set foot into a raid with this (unless it was a Naxx weekly or something). I'm not concerned with mitigation all that much, beyond the mandatory stuff (dodge/parry talents, Imp RF, DP glyph, etc etc.). Mainly about pumping out the big yellow numbers.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZV0xA0dTusIufzts0pbc:p0N - this is what I came up with.

My big question: would 0/2 SA mana starve me? Because if I do that, I could grab 5/5 Reckoning. I'm both an Alchemist (giving me access to an endless mana pot every minute) and geared enough to take next to no damage in 5-mans (who isn't nowadays?).

Thanks for any replies (feel free to laugh and mock the nub without JoTJ and Vindication :-P )
Harmacy
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 5:46 pm

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:22 am

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZV0xA0dTusIufdts0dbc:p0N
I altered it a bit. I am positive JotJ provides more threat than Conviction unless they changed something very recently. I don't imagine 0/2 SA would starve you in most situations, though the difference between 4/5 and 5/5 Reck is tiny.
Image
The Seeker.
User avatar
Grehn|Skipjack
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Malorne

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:24 am

For heroic trash, you won't see enough difference between 4/5 and 5/5 Reckoning to notice it. It'll still be evident on boss fights, but you can always pull the boss at the same time as the last trash pack to fix that.

Grehn's build is about the best you can do. I wouldn't recommend dropping 1/2 Spiritual Attunement. You need points to progress down the tree, and there's no other DPS talents you can move those points to.

If you want to go really extreme, try this on for size:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sMZV0xA0d ... ts0p0c:p0N

It's basically Grehn's build with the following changes:

-PoJ for 2 points in Conviction is a toss-up, and depends on what you like more. But for max threat, 4 in Conviction is obviously going to edge slightly ahead.

-Dropped to 1/2 Judgements of the Just for the extra point in Reckoning. Really minor boost on trash, but probably noticeable enough on bosses to be worth getting. Note that you want to keep 1/2 JotJ because it gives you a seal proc on Judgement.

-I've trimmed the prot tree down to 51 points, freeing 2 more up for Seals of the Pure. Since you'll be using SoCom on trash, it won't help you at all there. But if you're switching to SoV for bosses (don't forget to swap librams!) it'll give you a minor boost. Both points came from Shield of the Templar, which gives no damage boost. You could have taken one of them out of Ardent Defender or Guarded by the Light instead (or one from each) if you wanted to.

You could also drop the Divine Plea glyph for Holy Wrath if it's an undead heavy instance, or the SA or SoCom glyphs if mana is a concern (though it shouldn't be if you chain-pull).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7984
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby Meloree » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:43 am

I ran 0/51/20 as my secondary spec for heroics during the daily frost-badge-grind, and never switched from SoComm to SoV on bosses in heroics... there were generally too many adds still up. 2% more crit is better than essentially nothing from SotP.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:51 am

Could go with something like this
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZV0xA0ughsIudkts0dbf:z0N
I moved 2 points from Conviction to Sanctity of Battle because I have an irrational hatred of Conviction. They do the same thing anyway.
Also dropped SA and picked up Glyph of SoComm and maxed out Reck. Then finished out Imp Devo Aura because ARMOR.
Image
The Seeker.
User avatar
Grehn|Skipjack
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Malorne

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:22 am

Meloree wrote:I ran 0/51/20 as my secondary spec for heroics during the daily frost-badge-grind, and never switched from SoComm to SoV on bosses in heroics... there were generally too many adds still up. 2% more crit is better than essentially nothing from SotP.

Yeah, you could go the 51/20 route as well, especially if not switching to SoV.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7984
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby inthedrops » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:28 am

I've been running this spec lately in my offspec since we clear ICC in fewer days than before. I feel like I'm not wasting my 100G a week respeccing it :)

Although pursuit of justice doesn't add to DPS, It was important for me especially because I completely drop Avenger's Shield from my spec. So I wanted to be able to run around quickly. I also put two points into SA so that I can use consecrate more. I felt AD was important to keep in the spec as I get close to dieing fairly often in randoms.

After reading the advice from others above, I may pull that point out of reckoning and put it into Avenger's Shield next week and try that out. Reckoning really doesn't contribute that much to overall DPS.

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZV0xA0dgGsIhbdxf0pbc

With the right group mix, and a DPS friendly heroic, I'm just starting to hit the 6K AVERAGE dps point for an entire heroic run. Bosses are usually around the 5k mark at the top end. Trash pulls are easily in the 9k range.

As for glyphs, I've been experimenting with the SA glyph. It seems ok. I can go full more in my rotation most of the time without worrying about mana but there are still a few places I have to slow down. I'm wondering if anyone would think that glyph for Seal of Command mana return would be better? I am thinking it would be although I'm not sure either is really needed anymore with 2/2 SA.

I'm also going to move one point from improved judgements into benediction. That's a GREAT idea!
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby Meloree » Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:05 pm

Pull the point out of SA. You don't need 2/2.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby Astemus » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:13 am

I think that 2/2 SA is important in this build simply because you are vastly outgearing the content. Unless you like to drink between pulls.

If I had to guess, I'd say that SoComm glyph would be more mana return than the SA glyph, especially if you are judging on CD and have 2/2 imp judgements.

One thing, I was talking to a friend about this yesterday, and I think that 3/3 imp devo would serve better than the full 5/5 in toughness. Even if you are using another aura, it'll enable your healer to keep you going better with maybe a few hots and give them some more DPS time if they wanted it.
Astemus
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:37 am

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 11, 2010 1:57 pm

Astemus wrote:I think that 2/2 SA is important in this build simply because you are vastly outgearing the content. Unless you like to drink between pulls.

It really isn't. There should be no "between pulls" time if you're trying to embarrass DPS in a heroic. You chain pull everything, 2-3 groups at a time. Bosses are speed bumps, nothing more. The runs usually take under 10 minutes with a few exceptions.

I do this with 1/2 SA in my normal tank spec all the time, and could probably do it pretty easily with 0/2 for most instances, as BoSanc covers you pretty well with 10+ mobs on you.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7984
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby inthedrops » Sat Jun 12, 2010 5:45 am

Agreed with Theck about SA points, not just because his theories are well thought out and he admits when he doesn't know something, but because of personal experience.

Since my last post above I've continued to play around plenty with DPS'ing while tanking. The optimal spec for me, which I feel is the most "dedicated" is this one:

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZV0xAMzgusIubdts0t0s

Note that this spec misses a ton of "core" tanking talents so be prepared to be called a noob if someone inspects you :)

While the SA glyph or SoComm glyph seem like choices that would allow you to spam consecrate and holy wrath to your heart's content, they're simply not needed in all but the most dire circumstances. And even in those (like VH) you can sneak a drink in for 2 seconds here and there if you really get desperate.

For glyphs, I've learned to favor:
1. Glyph of Judgement (replace with Vengeance glyph for single target raid bosses)
2. Glyph of Hammer of the Righteous.
3. Glyph of Avenger's Shield.

The reason I prefer the Avenger's shield glyph is because my expertise is pretty good on gear alone, and it's single target fights where your DPS really suffers. Getting 12k AS crits goes a long way on those 30 second heroic boss fights. Save your mana on trash for Holy Wrath instead of Avenger's Shield.

I'm not an expert like Theck in theorycrafting. But I do consider myself well experienced in applying his and others theories for the sake of tank DPS. I've spent a lot of time doing micro adjustments here and there. I'm currently settled into the spec/glyph as described above.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby theckhd » Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:00 pm

inthedrops wrote:The reason I prefer the Avenger's shield glyph is because my expertise is pretty good on gear alone, and it's single target fights where your DPS really suffers. Getting 12k AS crits goes a long way on those 30 second heroic boss fights. Save your mana on trash for Holy Wrath instead of Avenger's Shield.

I use AS as a multi-target silence too often for that to work for me. My solution to single-target bosses is to pull the last two trash packs to the boss. That way you have something to cleave while everyone else nukes the boss down.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7984
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby inthedrops » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:21 pm

I use this spec/glyphs in easy raids too, like VoA. I don't spec for the silence or damage reduction from Avenger's Shield. So single target AS works for me :)
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby inthedrops » Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:39 am

My spec/glyphs/gear in action during a random heroic PoS. I hope it motivates, I know it does for me!

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=2&t=28958&rb_v=viewtopic
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: Pure heroics spec? Help me embarass the DPS!

Postby Astemus » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:06 am

I've been running quite a few heroics lately with my old pally tank, and I have quite a few mana problems. If I run through 2-3 groups, the healer has to spam me and I lose threat on outlying mobs to aoe occasionally if I they are too fast on their damage or I am too slow on the tabs.

It seems like I can only pull not enough to keep my mana up or too many and the healer is spamming me and has to drink. I am usually running with my wife on her priest, so I can get pull by pull updates on how hard or easy it is for the healer to keep me up. One pull and she does nothing and I run oom. 2 pulls at once and I keep enough mana and she is ok to keep going. 3 or more and there is trouble.

The problem is I'm using 2/2 SA and when tried with 1/2 SA, I was OOM pretty regularly unless I overpulled and then I would have to wait for healer mana. Now, I only have t9 on this character, so I'm not super geared, but I have been tanking my whole wow career on everything except a DK so I am fairly skilled to make up for it.

I am however used to a druid, where the talents make little difference in tanking dps for the most part and all your adjustments come from gear swapping. So I am a little new to tweaking tanking talents, especially for paladins.

So I guess my post comes down to what can I do to get more mana without having to waste points in 2/2 SA? Is pulling 3+ groups of mobs my only option? It just doesn't seem like the extra 3-4 mobs could make so much of a difference, especially since 1 or 2 of those will probably end up hitting me in the back, causing no blocks.


edit: I'm not looking to embarrass anyone, but I do like to set a high bar for DPS to shoot for, and also, doing as much dps as I can means that I am that much less reliant on other people's DPS contribution to complete heroics, which means I can afford to be a little more patient and understanding of people who may not be performing optimally.
Astemus
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2010 6:37 am

Next

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest