Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:39 pm

Koatanga wrote:Looking at the armory link, I see Bulldozer is using a 1.7 speed weapon.

As the Mythbusters say "well, there's your problem".

Use a slow DPS weapon with as much stam and agi as you can get on it. Almost all of our big threat talents scale on the speed of our weapon, with slower being better.

Swap to a DPS weapon and you won't need to resort to talent specs to keep ahead of your warlock.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47973 is what I use for a threat weapon.


Perusing the armory of he and his guild suggests the problem is far deeper than this.
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby Wrathy » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:42 am

I don't really want to stir this hornet's nest any more than it already has but, I have a few observations regarding the OP's situation. I understand the desire to produce as much threat as possible, and not wanting to have a dps pull, or threat capping them, but we as a community can not really deduce any root cause to threat issues with out a world of logs (or similar parsing sites) post.

My questions, advice and constructive criticism (although it seems as though your question was answered on page one):

My laymens answer to thecks links and math: Both are sub par at your gear level

If we can get a look at your rotation, then we can understand if there is something deeper than talent changes or that your warlock is pulling 12k dps. First and foremost, you have plenty of hit, and a good chunk of expertise with the Glyph. This in and of it self should be enough to help you out.

I am curious to understand the circumstances at which you need to push your threat, and where a warlock in your guild's standing is pulling 12k. Are we talking trash or boss fights. Are the threat issues at the beginning of the fight (first 20 Seconds) or sustained? Are you getting Tricks of the Trade and MD at the beginning?

Contrary to popular belief, I agree that you do not NEED to follow the main stream to get things done, If the OP wants more threat, more power to him, go for it, he is only in normal mode ICC, and there is nothing in there that is very threatening to tanks minus Soul reaper/hit combos. With that being said, even for threat, there are some interesting choices, divinity and benediction being the main ones.

Now for the bad news. Intangibly, PoJ is more threat because you can close the gap quicker, SoComm is tons more threat on trash, Lady Deathwhisper, and Dreamwalker, you can swap librams for more threat, you can use different gear for more threat, you can use different consumables for more threat, etc. I know that you didn't come here for criticism or arguments, so I am trying to be as constructive as possible, and asking for more information so that we can understand how to help you more.

I do, however, have to agree, that it is the MTs responsibility to plan for every "What If" situation and be prepared. That is why we take Vindication, that is why we take Imp Devo Aura, that is why we have survival talents in general. And, I agree that a tank healer who doesn't have to spend every GCD spamming the MT can heal the raid in situations where a dps is taking lots of damage, or they can blow gcds on survival cds if they themselves are dying.
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:48 am

There's no need to pile on Dozer. He came with a specific question about threat, which he got the answer to. That said, I do have a few comments.

tanker38 wrote:as far as pulling a point outta divinity u cant cause u need 2 points to go down to tier 5 since i put no points in tier 4


Ah right, with 0/3 Devotion aura you need 2 points somewhere to get to Reckoning. I erroneously thought that the 5/5 Reckoning was enough to progress further down the tree. This issue doesn't crop up much since most tanks take Imp. Devotion Aura.

99sitr wrote:So here is a good question pertaining to this info, if the OP is running his spec and another prot pally who is the offtank is running JotJ, Imp Dev aura, and vindication, wouldn't it seem wasted for the MT to run those talents as well?

No, as others have pointed out, there are many progression fights where the tanks are on different targets or not on the target at the same time. Lich King, Sindragosa, Putricide(10), Blood Princes, Dreamwalker adds, and Gunship are all examples of this. Furthermore, neither Vindication or JotJ have 100% uptime with a single paladin, so doubling up is still a survivability gain.

And that's all assuming that your off-tank isn't dead (or doesn't show up to the raid that evening, but you could always respec to plan around that).

tanker38 wrote:i am main tank for my guild but i do fine with mitigation

I'll reiterate the point that others have made. "I do fine" means "I am sufficient for the content we're clearing," not "I am optimized for the content we're clearing." There's no cap on mitigation, more of it is always useful. Whether it's worth trading threat for that survivability will depend on your situation, of course. But I think that you've sacrificed mitigation for threat to an extreme that most tanks wouldn't consider, which is why you're encountering as much resistance as you have.

Perhaps more importantly, your armory shows that you're working on Sindragosa and Blood Queen, and have yet to engage Arthas himself. All three of these fights are going to stress your resources as a tank, and all three are fights where extra mitigation is very useful but threat is relatively irrelevant. Since that's the content you'll be working on in the near future, it makes sense to start planning for it and optimizing accordingly.

tanker38 wrote:you can what if all day long what if a healer goes down what if a dps goes down what if ICC blew up what if dont matter at all

That's not really the case. It does matter, because those "what ifs" are the cause of wipes - you don't generally wipe when everything works perfectly, you wipe when the shit hits the fan and things don't go according to plan.

Your offtank will die at some point. Your healers will die, they will have to move out of fire, and they will disconnect. There will be periods where your healers simply cannot heal you. You can't prevent these things. However, you can prevent them from becoming wipes.

That is why most of us spec for more mitigation than you do. I have done this myself on many occasions. If you can survive long enough for your off-tank or healer to get a battle res or move out of the fire, then that extra mitigation may have turned a wipe into a kill. I've actually had both of my paladin healers and the off-tank die before, and managed to stay alive long enough to res all three and recover. It took judicious use of cooldowns/trinkets/taunts/positioning, smart raid healers that managed to throw me enough heals to keep me from dying, and a little luck, but it happened.

And keep in mind that even when things go according to plan, this can happen. Your healers will have to dodge behind ice blocks on Sindragosa or get Unchained Magic, which will prevent them from healing you. At the same time, your off-tank will be hiding behind ice blocks, so you won't have the JotJ/Vindication mitigation debuffs. So there will be both predictable and random periods where your incoming healing rate will dip below your rate of damage taken. You need to be able to survive those, and you'll have a better chance if you spec more heavily into mitigation.

tanker38 wrote:and like i have said before i take the threat over the other talents because we have dps that do insane numbers and they do the threat that goes along with it we got warlocks pushing 12k and up on fights and thats a lot of threat that i have to put out to keep bosses off of my dps

The only fight where your warlock will be pulling 12k DPS (or even 12k TPS) is Blood Queen, and when he's doing so he'll be generating 0 threat thanks to the vampire debuff. Given the gear level of the warlocks in your guild, they are simply incapable of pulling that much dps on a regular fight.

That said, I suspect that there's a deeper problem here. I have some very good DPS players, and short of an unlucky string of early crits, they don't come close to matching my threat. And as you've noticed, while I may spec a little threat-heavy, I have all of the important mitigation talents maxed. That means to me that there's something else going on that's limiting your threat output. That's good news, because it means that there is likely a simple that will both increase your threat output and let you spec into more mitigation.

If you have WoL parses, I'll be glad to take a look at them to try and diagnose what's going wrong. I'm sure a number of other posters would be glad to take a look as well.

Koatanga wrote:Looking at the armory link, I see Bulldozer is using a 1.7 speed weapon.

As the Mythbusters say "well, there's your problem".

Actually, that's not really a problem. He could certainly boost his threat output with a 2.6-speed weapon, but it's by no means required. I tank everything of significance with Last Word, Crusader's Glory, or Bonebreaker, and they're all sub-1.8. With his spec, he should be out-threating just about anybody even if he's tanking with a Dalaran Sword.


And finally, @dozer and 99sitr:

I'm not typing any of this to be condescending, so I hope you don't take it as such. I expect you are both here for the same reason many of us are - to improve as tanks, to optimize and get the most out of our characters, and ultimately to give our raids the highest chance of killing bosses. We're trying to help you reach those goals by giving you advice that's been reasonably well-researched and well-tested, so give it some consideration before casually tossing that advice aside.
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby theckhd » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:51 am

Dammit Wrathy, I spend 35 minutes writing a long, carefully-constructed post to address everything up to this point, and you sneak in and drop the "TLDR" version on them a few minutes ahead of me. Quit cutting in line, jerk! :P
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby tanker38 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:54 am

i dont see that taking imp devo aura is really that great cause yes its a little bit more armor but the healing effects dont stack with the druids tree aura and we always have a tree in our raids also i do swap librams out i use the threat libram most of the time on some fights i will switch back to the tanking one some i wont just depends on the boss and normally when locks are pulling threat or threat capped is at the beginning of the fight and i appreciate the more kindness that u had then the other posters other then thecks to me i really dont take that much damage so i see that i should push more for threat instead of other talants like imp devo and vindication just to name a few
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby Vorianloken » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:10 pm

tanker38 wrote:i dont see that taking imp devo aura is really that great cause yes its a little bit more armor but the healing effects dont stack with the druids tree aura and we always have a tree in our raids also i do swap librams out i use the threat libram most of the time on some fights i will switch back to the tanking one some i wont just depends on the boss and normally when locks are pulling threat or threat capped is at the beginning of the fight and i appreciate the more kindness that u had then the other posters other then thecks to me i really dont take that much damage so i see that i should push more for threat instead of other talants like imp devo and vindication just to name a few


Just a question, do you have anyone else in the raid who can provide the armor buff from imp devo aura and an AP debuff?

And while I understood your post with a little effort, please use formatting :) it helps.

/cheers
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby Wrathy » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:16 pm

Vorianloken wrote:Just a question, do you have anyone else in the raid who can provide the armor buff from imp devo aura and an AP debuff?


He has explained (in his first sentence) that they always have a tree druid, and I believe that he said that the other tank has the AP debuff.
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby tanker38 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:54 pm

Vorianloken wrote:
tanker38 wrote:i dont see that taking imp devo aura is really that great cause yes its a little bit more armor but the healing effects dont stack with the druids tree aura and we always have a tree in our raids also i do swap librams out i use the threat libram most of the time on some fights i will switch back to the tanking one some i wont just depends on the boss and normally when locks are pulling threat or threat capped is at the beginning of the fight and i appreciate the more kindness that u had then the other posters other then thecks to me i really dont take that much damage so i see that i should push more for threat instead of other talants like imp devo and vindication just to name a few


Just a question, do you have anyone else in the raid who can provide the armor buff from imp devo aura and an AP debuff?

And while I understood your post with a little effort, please use formatting :) it helps.

/cheers



yes we always have some one in the raid to give those buff/debuffs .
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby Vorianloken » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:57 pm

tanker38 wrote:
Vorianloken wrote:
tanker38 wrote:i dont see that taking imp devo aura is really that great cause yes its a little bit more armor but the healing effects dont stack with the druids tree aura and we always have a tree in our raids also i do swap librams out i use the threat libram most of the time on some fights i will switch back to the tanking one some i wont just depends on the boss and normally when locks are pulling threat or threat capped is at the beginning of the fight and i appreciate the more kindness that u had then the other posters other then thecks to me i really dont take that much damage so i see that i should push more for threat instead of other talants like imp devo and vindication just to name a few


Just a question, do you have anyone else in the raid who can provide the armor buff from imp devo aura and an AP debuff?

And while I understood your post with a little effort, please use formatting :) it helps.

/cheers


yes we always have some one in the raid to give those buff/debuffs .

feel free to ignore me then :) must have missed it earlier
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby Levantine » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:29 pm

Sweet mother of god. I just realised why I was having so much trouble reading that post. The entire thing was one 'sentence'.

Seriously, that shit's not cool.
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby Arjuna » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:17 pm

i dont see that taking imp devo aura is really that great cause yes its a little bit more armor

It's 600 free extra armor...kinda bad to miss out on free armor...
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby 99sitr » Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:04 am

I didn't think you were or are being condescending theckd :). I don't seem to have as much of an issue with threat as I would think, but just tonight I ran into some issues in 10man where I didn't have tricks, or MD to use due to neither class in the raid. My issue was threat within the first 10-15 seconds, granted some dps in the raid didn't think they should have to wait a second or two to unload which can bother a person every now and again. After about the first 15 seconds I was fine and in no jeopardy of losing aggro on the mob.

My question I guess would be one of starting rotation for max threat on pull. I have provided my armory link at the bottom. I have way too much hit ATM from the gear I have and I also have yet to get an enchant on my weapon equipped. I also have The Facelifter (w/ Accuracy), as well as Bonebreaeker Scepter (w/ Accuracy) stored away for when my gear changes and I need to accomodate different stats. My next two pieces of armor are the Pillars of Might (4 Saronite away) and the Cata Chest, and for some reason my +30 stam gem isnt showing on my AV ring. Also any comments on talent spec are more than welcomed.

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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:37 am

99sitr wrote:I don't seem to have as much of an issue with threat as I would think, but just tonight I ran into some issues in 10man where I didn't have tricks, or MD to use due to neither class in the raid. My issue was threat within the first 10-15 seconds, granted some dps in the raid didn't think they should have to wait a second or two to unload which can bother a person every now and again. After about the first 15 seconds I was fine and in no jeopardy of losing aggro on the mob.

In my experience, this is usually the case. After the first 15-20 seconds, threat isn't an issue. During the first 15, you can use Avenging Wrath or get Tricks/MD to help solidify aggro. Without tricks/MD, just remind the DPS to wait a few seconds or take it easy until you have a solid threat lead.

Also note that you can use taunt proactively if things get dicey. You have two of them, so use HoR for the forced 3-second fixate if you see a DPS rising on Omen very quickly in the first few seconds of the fight. You can always RD them again if they pass you.

As far as threat on the pull, I tend to do something like this on a ranged pull:
DP
HoReck followed by an AS almost immediatly
Judgement at 10yds
HotR
Cons
ShoR
HS
continue regular 969

Depending on how the Rogue and I coordinate, I may pop AW as soon as the boss is in melee range, or save it for after tricks wears off. This isn't that significant of a threat front-load, but it's enough for most fights, especially if I'm the one doing the pulling (and thus DPS has to run for a few seconds before they can engage).

On a stationary pull like Saurfang I go with a slightly different opener (especially Saurfang, in fact, since snap threat is important and the melee can go all-out from the start):
DP
Cons
HS while spamming HoReck (timed such that I cast HS about 1.5-2 seconds before combat starts)
AW+HotR
ShoR
AS or Judg
HotR
ShoR
Cons
HotR
ShoR

This front-loads as many big aggro moves as possible just in case one misses. Usually this gives me a substantial threat lead, at which point I can start shifting into 969, refresh SS, or what not. On our 10-man Saurfang, my off-tank taunts right around that last point to take the first Rune of Blood, so I have to hold back a bit on aggro at that point anyhow in order to not pull off of him.

I don't see anything wrong with your spec. I still think that the utility of PoJ, SoCom, and DS/DG outweigh the meager threat benefit of Conviction and Reckoning, but that's a personal preference. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times DS/DG has saved a wipe on heroic 10-mans, and we plan around having it for several of them (Marrowgar, DBS, BQL, Festergut, Putricide, Sindragosa, LK).

Gear-wise, you look fine. Enchants and gems are all OK. The avoidance trinket isn't great; if you have the spare triumph badges I'd pick up Glyph of Indomitability. You have a lot of hit right now, but that'll change as you replace some of the pieces. Since the tier helm is so good, that's one obvious place to drop hit rating once you have another token.

I generally run about 80 hit rating in my normal tanking set (AV ring + weapon enchant). I sometimes swap in other items for more hit rating if necessary, t10 gloves or Bonebreaker Scepter in particular. Again, outside of the pull it really doesn't make much difference in most fights. Dreamwalker and LK are the two where I see hit rating as more valuable than usual, since there are constant add pick-ups and tank swaps to juggle.
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Re: Seals of the Pure vs. Conviction

Postby Abuna » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:48 am

I have read this thread multiple times, as it always gives me a bit of a chuckle. Any MT who would spec without Improved devotion aura (Armor), the healing is a nice plus, is just hard to believe. From all my research, mostly here I am of the firm opinion that our job is to survive and generate threat, and survival is the #1 thing. Threat can and should be managed by DPS, although don't really have many issues myself, except in Sindragosa when our mages or Boomys(10+ K) hit Sindy before I get her in position.

Thanks for all the good info here BTW.. just got Last Word in 10H, and kinda happy about that as I have killed Marrogar more times than I would like to admit, and never seen the Sceptre..lol

Theck is a god BTW... if ya get help from him and ignore it, time to reroll a new toon!
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