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Divinity just for LK

Postby kakashi » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:25 am

Been lurking on these forums for a long time and read them almost religiously. I consider myself to be well versed in mechanics and tanking.

Right now we're at the LK and even though I am well geared but the guy hits like a train. I mean I am usually just above 6-7k hp after a melee swing lands, and almost praying that another doesn't land consecutively. Got healers spamming me but since I am taking so much damage for so long and am getting healed a lot, surely it's worth considering Divinity ?

I've always thought it to be a waste of talent points before, with much of it being overhealing. In this case though a lot of the big heals do land on time and I am healed for a lot. All I would have to give up is threat.

Any thoughts ?
Last edited by kakashi on Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby Zobel » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:27 am

The way to increase that remaining 6-7k is by increasing your health pool, not increasing the size of each heal. Are those heals topping you off each time? If so, making them bigger won't help.

I'm concerned about how you only have one point in Guarded by the Light.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby kakashi » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:06 pm

I don't need 100% chance to keep up Divine Plea and was struggling a little for threat on an earlier fight so took a point out of that since was taking very little spell damage, so took a point out of Guarded by Light.

I disagree though about Divinity here though. Threat isn't an issue on this fight, that' s the only thing I would be giving up. Divinity even if 70% going to overhealing would still be some sort of help.... Wrong?

Again I wouldn't even consider this for other bosses, but this boss just makes me question that.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:22 pm

It comes down to whether or not that 5% extra healing done to you will change the fight at all for your healers.

If they are struggling to replace your lost HP before the next big hit, and that 5% would mean the difference between topping you up and not topping out up, then it would be a worthwhile investment.

If they are able to top you up between hits, then an extra 5% won't alter the fight as far as they are concerned. They will still spam big heals on you, and still top you up. In that case, Divinity would be of no benefit.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby kakashi » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:45 am

Well we killed it in 10 man yesterday... but it isn't as bad there. Didn't feel as squishy as in 25 man version.

I think I will give it a go and get some feedback and see how I feel about it. Since threat is a non issue in this fight won't have too much to lose, except the respec costs. Will have to pay more attention to see if I get completely topped off between consecutive hits or not.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:32 am

The thing with divinity is that it's gains are only visible when healing can't keep up with damage intake.

Today healing works like this:
Case 1) Healing is fine. Health goes to full within a gcd
Case 2) Someone did something wrong and your health went to 0 within a gcd

Divinity's increase on heals doesn't make up for case 2's problem, and doesn't make a difference on case 1.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:44 pm

Divinity is certainly better on fights where your health isn't being topped off regularly (i.e. the trickle-down death scenario). That may or may not be the case on LK, depending on your healers. I find that my deaths on LK tend to be due to failed Soul Reaper transitions (or not being healed enough to survive the 50k damage after the boss has been taunted). In some of those cases, divinity might've helped me get up over the kill threshold.

That said, it's still a small effect, and abysmally expensive in terms of talent points. If you aren't using DG/DS for that encounter though, I could see going with divinity for your discretionary points. I'm contemplating a 2/5 Divinity 1/2 HoJ build for our next round of attempts, though I'd hate to lose DG/DS for the vile spirits.

<edit>Also remember that DG gives you another 20% cooldown to play with, so you should be able to cover almost every Soul Reaper with a cooldown if necessary. That might be a bigger benefit than the added healing.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby Wrathy » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:27 pm

theckhd wrote:<edit>Also remember that DG gives you another 20% cooldown to play with, so you should be able to cover almost every Soul Reaper with a cooldown if necessary. That might be a bigger benefit than the added healing.


I have been rotating cooldowns and just tanking through the soul reaper hits, and we have yet to have problems with my survival. DP, DS/DG, Trinkets, and its not that big a deal, its still a huge hit, but its no where near a game breaker.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby kakashi » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:49 am

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZE0tAbuMGsIufdxsR

This would be the spec I would take. I would still have DS/DG which is like you said Theck and enormous help throughout this fight. Divinity is an inefficient use of talent points which is why I've never considered this before.

There are stages through this fight where healing fluctuates on you, e.g

1) Valkyre carrying off one more more healers.
2) One or more healers being in the frostmourne room.
3) Being cut off from some healers due to defile placement.

It's important to use / have some CD's available to this but maybe that little extra from divinity will help during this as well.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby Wrathy » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:00 am

A few things about that spec. I find PoJ irreplaceable in this fight, for running out of Defile, for movement in phase transitions, for chasing down Valks and throwing out a hammer or HW. Also, while I probably do not have enough attempts on LK to completely make up my mind, there has not been a single time where Divinity would have benefited me.

Soul Reaper has two different options, from what our guild experienced, the first and more probable is that you get hit, healed to full and hit again. Usually with a CD active, soul reaper hits for 30k, I get a few heals, a melee hit, then healed to full prior to the second tick of SR. The more detrimental option, and the one that should be of most concern, is the back to back melee/soul reaper. Currently, There is not enough gear in normal modes to provide us the total effective health to survive this combo. I am almost 100% 264 with 57.0k buffed hp and 40k armor, and get one shot with this combo by quite a bit. Divinity will not help you there, you are not going to receive a heal in that situation.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby repent » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:21 pm

I would not give up pursuit for this particular fight. There is way too much necessary motion involved to trade pursuit for divinity. However, in the spec you linked, you would have 2/2 Spiritual Attunement, which is pointless for LK. As to the other comments, threat is not an issue with LK at all. The threat lead we have is absurd. Sometimes I think people discount ideas on this forum just because they have been discounted for so long. I would try 4/5 divinity, 1/2 SA and 2/2 Pursuit if you were inclined to spec into a LK specific spec. (Especially if tank death is an issue.)
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby d503 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:47 pm

I may be old-fashioned, but the pre-nerf STAM whore in me says that it wouldn't hurt for your to improve some of those gem/enchant choices that you've made...

By swapping any <12 Socket bonus to all stam gems, putting 275 health on your chest, enchanting your gloves with stamina, using a pvp shoulder enchant and replacing that redundant boot enchant, you'd easily easily gain:

- 85 STA
- 75 HP

You're looking at a pretty substantial increase in EH, by only sacrificing, what, 30 AGI from gems, and some negligible avoidance from the other enchants.

Ultimately, it's up to you, but the higher you raise that AD threshold, the easier time healers are going to have getting you healed to take another hit.

You seem to already be properly valuing armor with your gear choices (though I would've chosen the legs over the boots for craftables).

If I'm off, please let me know...my head spins when Theck starts'a'mathin'.

EDIT: I forgot Mongoose...I mean, Blood Draining's neat and all, but I would think Mongoose would be WAY more effective an enchant...but it's all about personal preference there. IIRC Mongoose gives me ~2ish% avoidance in ICC when it procs.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby kakashi » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:40 pm

@ repent : Yes my bad with the spec I linked. I always go with 1/2 SA just rushed it a bit there. About PoJ, I'd need to invest two points in that to make it worth while. The spare point from SA I would put in HoJ to get the CD up for every Valkrye phase. I get the feeling that if you've always used PoJ it's harder to be without it. Moving isn't an issue atm for me.

@d503: Chest enchant I slacked on with the intention of getting the 275 one once it was on the AH. Totally forgot.

I've taken on board your suggestions of going nearly all out stamina gems. I would be lose 0.5% dodge 75 armour and like 1% crit, but it's probably worth it. The glove enchant I wasn't too sure about... threat is an issue on other fights. But I'll try without Armsman.

As for Mongoose... maybe will give that a go. However I do like Blood Draining, going to pay attention next time how often I can get 5 stacks before it procs in LK encounter.
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby Antique » Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:22 am

I've been thinking about this too and i would not recommend specing out of DivSac its just too useful. if nothing else as a personal 20% damge reduce cd with a cancelaura macro. glyphing salv is also an option to gain another cd since threat should not be an issue after p1.
if you look at my spec you can see that i moved the 3 points from imp devotion aura into divinity since i always raid with the same holy paladin who has it (doesnt cost them anything to pick it up) if you want to max it out you can take the other 2 from crusade, i would not recommend loosing any utility points in ret.
personally im keeping crusade 3/3 because of the way we deal with soulreaper - my warrior co-tank intervenes me (with 2/2 safeguard) + whatever personal cd i have available at the moment so that combined with using salv on myself almost every cd takes away quite a bit of threat.

i agree that divinity is probably worth it for lichking. tank dmg is not that much except for soulreaper but if your primary tank healer gets picked up by a valkyr or ported in the other room it will help
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Re: Divinity just for LK

Postby Khayne » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:17 pm

Actually next week i do plan on using allmost same spec as kakashi said, except that with 1/2 SA and only 4/5 divinity so i cna keep PoJ.
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