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My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

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My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Milesius » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:41 pm

First of all, hello. Been checking Maintankadin for about 4 months now since it was first recommended to me, however I have only just now gotten around to registering a profile as I have a Qn to ask R.E. my tanking spec (though that should be obvious by the thread title ofc)

When I first created this Paladin, right from Lv 10 I followed a popular and well recommended tanking spec and used it throughout TBC heroics/raids without problems. Infact, I've never felt the need to respec once, only such respecs have occured due to talent refunds after a major patch change. I've now gotten around to tweaking my rotation (using the 6969 rotation constantly now, aswell as it's AoE 'variation'), am improving my gear and generally feeling the need to get better post-3.2 However, on both my server, and across most boards, I've never recieved any conclusive analysis of my spec and whether or not it needs adjusting, and was hoping someone here might have a tried and tested suggestion.

To put it into context, my Guild does 10-man WoTLK raid content. I help out in Naxxramas on one day, and tank Ulduar with a Warrior tank the rest of the time. Also, with the Conquest badges available, I've returned to doing heroics frequently. I basically feel the need to utilise a form of 'jack-of-all-trades' spec that will allow me to perform at my best in 10-man raiding (both as a Boss MT and trash clearing) while also allowing me to perform Heroics without sacrifice.

Here's a link to my character's Armory page: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aerie+Peak&n=Milesius

It appears to be up to date, to the day of this being posted.

Any assistance or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Kynes » Sat Aug 08, 2009 1:53 am

In reference to your "prot" talenting, it's pretty solid. But you've alocated 10 points into talents many consider to be wastes. First off, 5/5 Divinity is considered to be 5% overheal. Is that exactly true? Not really but if you're tanking then the healers are already focused on you and they shouldn't need a measly 5% to keep you alive. Second, 5/5 reckoning is also considered sub par. With the recent changes to SoV it has become somewhat viable for threat but as I'll show you, you have much better options.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAMu ... xfMobc:0Gp

Check the spec I linked. I drop Divinity and Reckoning for a slew of talents in ret. 3/3 HotC isn't a bad call to move down the tree and since you'll be running 5/10 mans, you're not guarenteed the 3% crit buff in every run. 2/2 Vindication is the paladin version of Demo shout now, passing it up can't really be justified. 2/2 PoJ and 1/5 Conviction is a bit of a flavor choice. You can grab imp BoM or just throw 3 points into Conviction if you want. The point is to move down the tree to get 3/3 Crusade. 3/3 Crusade is an amazing talent as it scales directly with every single threat ability you have because it's a flat % increase in damage across the board. And half the time it's viability is doubled to 6% (which helps it beat SotP in holy).

I hope this helps. It's 3:53am here and I'm not sure I made sense.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Milesius » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:12 pm

Sorry for the late reply, Maintankadin went down shortly after I posted and I forgot to check up as to whether or not the site had come back up. :?

This reply was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for in a response. I plan to 'respec' to shift some of my less useful talents around so this really helps me sort that out. My respecs will be cheap atm, but I still don't much fancy wasting gold on speculation, thanks.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Kynes » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:20 am

Milesius wrote:Sorry for the late reply, Maintankadin went down shortly after I posted and I forgot to check up as to whether or not the site had come back up. :?

This reply was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for in a response. I plan to 'respec' to shift some of my less useful talents around so this really helps me sort that out. My respecs will be cheap atm, but I still don't much fancy wasting gold on speculation, thanks.


It's always good to see someone who wants to learn. Don't be a stranger!
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby saranya » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:45 am

I've definitely had my reservations against reckoning as others have had. I've been testing this spec the past week and have been quite happy with it. I'm the MT so don't bother with divine sacrifice. can't live without PoJ. (just as reference, guild raids ulduar25 - 13/14)

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0uGusIufdxfMobc
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Jasari » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:27 am

saranya wrote:I'm the MT so don't bother with divine sacrifice.


I feel obligated to post this everytime someone decides not to get DS/DG because they're the "MT"

Jasari wrote:See: Mimiron P2, XT Tantrums, Thorim tank swap, Freya Exploding Flowers, Razorscale tank swap, Yogg P2, Malygos P2, Sapphiron air phase, etc.

Yeah, even as a MT Divine Sacrifice is VERY useful.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Lykaon » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:47 am

I have Divine Sacrifice because it seemed like a reasonable place to put a point, but to be perfectly honest I almost never use it. This very well may be me not knowing how to use it effectively, but I feel that it's mainly wasting space on my bars.

My guild has managed to get through the encounters listed above (well not all of them, but the ones they have attempted) without the use of Divine Sacrifice, so there has been little need to use it.

Nonetheless, a wise man knows what he does not know and I realize that I just don't know when and how to use Divine Sacrifice. Any pointers by those who feel it is a godsend would be quite welcome. I find myself in situations where using it without Divine Shield would lead to my death.

Do you always use it in conjunction with divine shield? If not, then how do you time it such that you aren't in a position where you need to be tanking while divine shield & sacrifice are still up?

.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Jasari » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:16 am

Lykaon wrote:I have Divine Sacrifice because it seemed like a reasonable place to put a point, but to be perfectly honest I almost never use it. This very well may be me not knowing how to use it effectively, but I feel that it's mainly wasting space on my bars.

My guild has managed to get through the encounters listed above (well not all of them, but the ones they have attempted) without the use of Divine Sacrifice, so there has been little need to use it.

Nonetheless, a wise man knows what he does not know and I realize that I just don't know when and how to use Divine Sacrifice. Any pointers by those who feel it is a godsend would be quite welcome. I find myself in situations where using it without Divine Shield would lead to my death.

Do you always use it in conjunction with divine shield? If not, then how do you time it such that you aren't in a position where you need to be tanking while divine shield & sacrifice are still up?

.


I ALWAYS use it with Divine Shield. I have a macro:

Code: Select all
/castsequence Divine Shield, Divine Sacrifice


that I mash when needed. While it definitely isn't "required" (that would be against the whole "bring the player not the class" philosophy), it does help A LOT if used correctly:

Mimiron: I use Divine Protection for the first plasma blast in P1. 2 minutes later, sometime during P2 forbearance will have worn off. When that happens I mash my macro and mitigate exactly 7 fucktons of raid damage.

XT Tantrums: You should also have a macro:
Code: Select all
/cancelaura Divine Sacrifice
/cancelaura Divine Shield
/cast Holy Shield

As soon as he starts tantrumming, even if you're MTing, you can mash your macro since XT stops meleeing during tantrum. As soon as it's over just hit HS and you'll cancel Divine Sac and Shield and continue tanking as normal. Be sure to coordinate with your rets or holys so that you're all doing it on different tantrums.

Thorim Tankswap: This one I've found to be one of the most underrated times to use it. As soon as the other tank taunts off me, I pop it, which gives him a lot of mitigation and makes chain lightning a lot less deadly, and helps mitigate all the other crap flying around if you're doing hardmode.

Freya Exploding Flowers: If you're solo tanking you can't use it here. But if you have another tank, have them taunt Freya when you get the flower adds so that you can pop DivSac when the flowers get to 10% and help keep the raid alive.

Razorscale tankswap: Anytime another tank taunts off you, you can use it to give them a mini shield wall and mitigate raid damage

Yogg P2: You're not really tanking anything here so it's a save time to use it. I usually wait until I get constrictor'd and blow Divine Shield to break out of that and then there's really no reason NOT to blow DivSac for a little raid mitigation too.

Sapphiron: On our progression kill, there was actually the slight risk of healers going oom, so I always blew this toward the end of the fight when sapph flew up into the air to help ease up the healing requirement a little.

Malygos: I didn't mention this, but this was one of the first fights where I fell in love with the talent (back in it's original form). During the first deep breath of P2, this was was the difference between the whole raid surviving or a couple DPS dying.

Iron Council Hardmode: Our guild goes Runemaster -> Stormcaller -> Steelbreaker and after Runemaster dies there's a TON of raid damage going out. We actually chain several DivSac/Shield together to help mitigate this damage and it definitely was the difference between us downing him or not.

The benefit from this OP combo will only be game changing on progression kills, but when used at the right time it really does save lives.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby saranya » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:33 am

Jasari wrote:
saranya wrote:I'm the MT so don't bother with divine sacrifice.


I feel obligated to post this everytime someone decides not to get DS/DG because they're the "MT"

Jasari wrote:See: Mimiron P2, XT Tantrums, Thorim tank swap, Freya Exploding Flowers, Razorscale tank swap, Yogg P2, Malygos P2, Sapphiron air phase, etc.

Yeah, even as a MT Divine Sacrifice is VERY useful.


don't get me wrong. It does have it's usefulness, although for those encounters you've listed...my guild finds unnecessary. your guild might require the extra help. this is not bashing, just different guilds need different things.

I did use it when we first did xt002 but quickly found it was not helping that much (especially with the range limitation and the absorption change to 150% of health where before it had no limit) . imho, you're making more work for yourself than necessary. we have 2 fulltime rets and they can fulfill this need if we ever need it again.

also, because of the change to sacred shield and it not stacking anymore was just another reason that I chose to spec out of this route.
Last edited by saranya on Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Jasari » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:43 am

saranya wrote:and the absorption change to 150% of health where before it had no limit


This didn't actually happen by the way. It's a rumor that seems to pop up every patch, but is easily refuted with WoLog reports.

My biggest disagreement with taking reckoning instead of DS/DG is that even after the 3.2 changes, it's only ~25 TPS per point. So while those fights are doable without a mini raidwall, they're also doable with 75 less TPS.

But to each their own, DS/DG definitely isn't required and as you said can be provided by rets. I just want to dispel the rumor that it's an OT-only talent.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby saranya » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:12 am

Jasari wrote:
saranya wrote:and the absorption change to 150% of health where before it had no limit


This didn't actually happen by the way. It's a rumor that seems to pop up every patch, but is easily refuted with WoLog reports.


And I'll just point out, you never know when blizz will fix this bug so relying on it is up to whoever. Just like when Shield of Righteousness was able to be spammed both ranks. The tooltip is pretty self-explanatory in what it is supposed to reduce, honestly, I haven't see any recent discussion on if this mechanic is still infinity as you state.

Jasari wrote:My biggest disagreement with taking reckoning instead of DS/DG is that even after the 3.2 changes, it's only ~25 TPS per point. So while those fights are doable without a mini raidwall, they're also doable with 75 less TPS.

But to each their own, DS/DG definitely isn't required and as you said can be provided by rets. I just want to dispel the rumor that it's an OT-only talent.



Using your link there stating only 25tps per point...your neglecting the overall affect when taking into account DUH mobs (scroll down a little to see the graph), which I think we can generally accept that 3.3 will bring more undead, demons, and humanoid mobs.

3R+5V+3C is almost 300tps more than the next closes spec without reckoning at 5S+3V on DUH mobs. that's a little bit more than 75tps.

again, to each and his own. everybody has their own flavor.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Jasari » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:25 am

saranya wrote:And I'll just point out, you never know when blizz will fix this bug so relying on it is up to whoever. Just like when Shield of Righteousness was able to be spammed both ranks. The tooltip is pretty self-explanatory in what it is supposed to reduce, honestly, I haven't see any recent discussion on if this mechanic is still infinity as you state.

Assuming it actually is a bug. Based on how prevalent it is among hard mode progression kills, I'm a little surprised it hasn't been fixed if it's not working as intended.

saranya wrote:Using your link there stating only 25tps per point...your neglecting the overall affect when taking into account DUH mobs (scroll down a little to see the graph), which I think we can generally accept that 3.3 will bring more undead, demons, and humanoid mobs.

3R+5V+3C is almost 300tps more than the next closes spec without reckoning at 5S+3V on DUH mobs. that's a little bit more than 75tps.

Wait, where is it 300 TPS more than the next closest?

Comparing 3r5v3c to 5v3c against a DUH mob we get: 8465 to 8386 = 79 TPS difference.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby Lykaon » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:29 am

Thanks for the rundown Jasari. I'll try using it on those fights. It had never occurred to me to use it WHILE maintanking XT2.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby saranya » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:56 pm

Jasari wrote:
saranya wrote:And I'll just point out, you never know when blizz will fix this bug so relying on it is up to whoever. Just like when Shield of Righteousness was able to be spammed both ranks. The tooltip is pretty self-explanatory in what it is supposed to reduce, honestly, I haven't see any recent discussion on if this mechanic is still infinity as you state.

Assuming it actually is a bug. Based on how prevalent it is among hard mode progression kills, I'm a little surprised it hasn't been fixed if it's not working as intended.


you mean like how quickly it took blizz to fix judgments overwriting each other?


Our perspectives are different since you seem to use it at every turn and my guild doesn't without any problem. anyways...I'll concede the overall argument, without agreeing with your argument.
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Re: My tanking spec need a change/adjustment?

Postby majiben » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:52 pm

saranya wrote:you mean like how quickly it took blizz to fix judgments overwriting each other?
Completely different. judgements overwriting each other was a minor nusiance that could be overcome by a little communication that affected gameplay negatively. DivSac acted as a massive reduction in danger and raid healing needs that allowed for kills weeks early.
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