2/2 SA build

[Koatanga]

For reasons I won't go into, my new guild has opted away form using Blessing of Sanctuary. They also have potent and aggressive DPS requiring good threat output.

I have been running 0/53/18 with 3/5 Conviction and 2/2 PoJ and really enjoy the build, but I am getting mana starved keeping up with the DPS without the mana return from BoS. Consider also a fight like General where SA is your only form of mana return.

I am wondering how much threat I would lose dropping Crusade and 3/5 Conviction in favor of 1 more SA and 5/5 SotP

New build: http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=2&tal=050000000000000000000000000500513520310232133331232151130000200000000000000000

I've already had the discussion with them regarding BoS, and being new on the block I don't think it is an appropriate time to hop on a soapbox about it, so it is pretty much up to me to get the job done without BoS. Please keep this to an assessment of the builds, not a discussion of the merits of the blessing.

[Magnilda]

4/5 Benediction instead of 3/3 Heart of the Crusader to help with your mana.

Maybe take points from Ardent Defender, Judgements of the Just, and Divine Sacrifice if you want to go further up the Ret tree for Conviction and Crusader.

P.S - Just use BoSanc and tell your guilds DPS to l2p.

[Dread]

Your guild is stupid. Even Blizzard has posted that they intended BoS to be a prot pally's choice of blessings. The only time it should really be an issue is when you're buffing your own class (if you're short on pallys and they want kings or something from you). If that's the case, just use a 10 min BoS on yourself and ask them to give you a 10 min Kings in return. Otherwise, your current build is solid.

Bottom line: use BoS!!!

[Candiru]

3% less damage taken is pretty win tbh.

[Wolvar]

I'm confused at why your guild would try to control what blessing you put on YOURSELF. Is there any buff or item in the game that gives as much mitigation as BOS?

3/3 crusade and 3/5 conviction is probably more than twice the threat of 5/5 sotp.

[theckhd]

I am wondering how much threat I would lose dropping Crusade and 3/5 Conviction in favor of 1 more SA and 5/5 SotP

You'd be better off just going with 54/17 and dropping the last point in Crusade to pick up the second point in SA.

This post goes into detail about the threat output of each of these talents. The line graph shows that a 3/5 Conviction + 3/3 Crusade build is more than 100 TPS ahead of 5/5 SotP build, so even after dropping one point in Crusade (worth ~70 TPS) the ret spec should still be superior.

[Koatanga]

Thanks for the advice.

I ended up dropping conviction for Benediction, and moving 1 point from Crusade to get the 2/2 SA. I swapped glove enchant from Agility to Armsman to attempt to recover some of the lost threat.

As an aside - does conviction stack with the other +crit debuffs from warlocks or mages?

As far as why I don't buff myself with the 10-minute version, it's political thing more than a mechanics thing. Their existing Pally tank is apparently used to working without Sanctuary, and given three blessings he wants Kings, Might, and Wisdom. If he's running Kings/Might/Wis and I run Sanc/Might/Wis, I appear to be an even smaller thank than I am due to the HP loss. I do the Kings, by the way. Wis comes from the Holy, and might comes for the existing prot pally who doesn't believe in Sanc.

On some fights, I "cheat" and use the 10-min Sanc on myself anyway - particularly mana-intensive ones or where I will be getting multiple add waves and will be burning a lot of mana with Avenger's Shield, Exorcism, taunt, etc. over and above my normal rotation.

If I establish myself as being knowledgeable in what I am talking about, they will be more inclined to pay attention than if I go in huffing and puffing about how their existing pally tank is wrong. For now I am trying it their way.

[Grehn|Skipjack]

3 Paladins.
2 Prot
1 Holy

1 Holy does G Kings and Wisdom's himself
1 Prot does G Sanc and Kings the Holy
1 Prot does G Might

There is no reason for the Prot paladins to have Wisdom when they could have Sanc.

[Argali]

It sucks to be in a guild with an established player who they'll believe over you. Best thing to do is point someone in charge to this forum.

[Wolvar]

he wouldn't need wisdom if he ran bos.. and he'd mitigate more damage. Somebody doesn't know their class very well.

[Koatanga]

... which is pretty much why I wish this topic was about the merits of the build rather than the blessing. As much as I know you guys are trying to be helpful, I can't exactly point to this thread to back up my case if people are berating his largest pally tank.

This game is about more than theorycraft - peoplecraft is required as well.

[Dread]

As far as why I don't buff myself with the 10-minute version, it's political thing more than a mechanics thing. Their existing Pally tank is apparently used to working without Sanctuary, and given three blessings he wants Kings, Might, and Wisdom. If he's running Kings/Might/Wis and I run Sanc/Might/Wis, I appear to be an even smaller thank than I am due to the HP loss. I do the Kings, by the way. Wis comes from the Holy, and might comes for the existing prot pally who doesn't believe in Sanc.

Do us a favor and point your guild to this thread.

Their current prot pally is borderline retarded. The amount of mana generated by BoW for a prot pally will pale in comparison to the amount of mana recovered with BoSanc. Oh, and did I mention that BoSanc offers you 3% damage reduction????? And next patch, BoSanc will also provide the 10% increase to Stam (not stacking with Kings, but effective in situations with a limited number of paladins available to buff). DID I MENTION THE 3% DAMAGE REDUCTION PART OF THE BUFF THAT NO SERIOUS TANK SHOULD REJECT???

The purpose of a tank is to hold aggro AND reduce the amount of damage they're receiving. Your guild's "veteran" (I say this with a disgusting taste in my mouth because he's clearly a bad player wrapped in terribleness) prot pally needs to realize that BoSanc is our best blessing we could have on us. If he doesn't have BoSanc on himself, he shouldn't be tanking.

I'm sorry for being harsh, but this is just ridiculous.

[Grehn|Skipjack]

Their current prot pally is borderline retarded.

That's really as far as this needs to go. Their tank is stupid. Either make him better, or go somewhere else.

[Dread]

... which is pretty much why I wish this topic was about the merits of the build rather than the blessing. As much as I know you guys are trying to be helpful, I can't exactly point to this thread to back up my case if people are berating his largest pally tank.

This game is about more than theorycraft - peoplecraft is required as well.

You could point to the thread and say that pretty much the most skilled paladin players in the game frequent the forums and if the general consensus is that BoSanc is a good tool that they should really give it more thought. Specing into Benediction (one of the worst talents you can spend points on as a prot pally) versus using your most powerful tool that also reduces damage taken is silly. You and your guild should be ashamed that you've considered/chosen that option.

[Solare]

It's a sorry state of political nonsense what is going on with your guild; but having the wisdom to know that you cannot change it, the least we can do is arm you with the knowledge to live with it.

I agree with Heck. Actually, I've been running 54/17 for awhile now only because it's very helpful for the Vezax fight. I mean, I *COULD* respec back and forth between that and 53/18, but really, that's mildly ridiculous. Anyway, I find that the mana returns from Sanct are really only required for trash, anyway. Weak trash. Like back in Naxx. Some of the trash in Ulduar hit as hard as Naxx bosses, so your SA and Replenishment and JoW should do you just fine without Sanct.