vindication worth it

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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:59 pm

Dread wrote:In terms of how much free room Ret will have in 3.2, you have to realize that 5/5 SotP will now be a requirement and DS is expected for raid utility. That leaves very few open points for Ret.


I don't think this makes it difficult for ret to pick up Vindication. In my PvE ret build in 3.1, I waste 4 points in Toughness in order to pick up Divine Guardian. Taking SotP makes that impossible, but since that was 6 points, I actually gain 1 spare point to put in Vindication. It's not that big a deal to drop 1 point from either HotC or Imp. BoM depending on who you usually run with (I tend to have an ele shaman or tankadin bringing crit debuff, so I will probably go 2/3 HotC, myself).
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Dorvan » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:32 pm

Modal wrote:
Dread wrote:In terms of how much free room Ret will have in 3.2, you have to realize that 5/5 SotP will now be a requirement and DS is expected for raid utility. That leaves very few open points for Ret.


I don't think this makes it difficult for ret to pick up Vindication. In my PvE ret build in 3.1, I waste 4 points in Toughness in order to pick up Divine Guardian. Taking SotP makes that impossible, but since that was 6 points, I actually gain 1 spare point to put in Vindication. It's not that big a deal to drop 1 point from either HotC or Imp. BoM depending on who you usually run with (I tend to have an ele shaman or tankadin bringing crit debuff, so I will probably go 2/3 HotC, myself).


1/2 In Vindication or Imp BoM doesn't do you a whole lot of good: you're going to want someone else providing the real thing. Basically, for Ret you pick 2 of: Imp BoM, Vindication, DSac. In general, I'm guessing Ret will take Imp BoM and DSac and leave the AP debuff to someone else.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Modal » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:19 pm

Depends on what else you run with, really. But not hard for a ret to pick up. If you really want all 3 buffs, 4/5 SotP probably won't be too bad, either.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Dread » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:08 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Modal wrote:
Dread wrote:In terms of how much free room Ret will have in 3.2, you have to realize that 5/5 SotP will now be a requirement and DS is expected for raid utility. That leaves very few open points for Ret.


I don't think this makes it difficult for ret to pick up Vindication. In my PvE ret build in 3.1, I waste 4 points in Toughness in order to pick up Divine Guardian. Taking SotP makes that impossible, but since that was 6 points, I actually gain 1 spare point to put in Vindication. It's not that big a deal to drop 1 point from either HotC or Imp. BoM depending on who you usually run with (I tend to have an ele shaman or tankadin bringing crit debuff, so I will probably go 2/3 HotC, myself).


1/2 In Vindication or Imp BoM doesn't do you a whole lot of good: you're going to want someone else providing the real thing. Basically, for Ret you pick 2 of: Imp BoM, Vindication, DSac. In general, I'm guessing Ret will take Imp BoM and DSac and leave the AP debuff to someone else.


This. You never know when that other person who's almost always there to give the buff won't be there anymore. I know it'll be easy to get 1 point into Vind, but I was saying you'd have to cut another point from elsewhere (thus decreasing another utility you provide) in order to max it out in a typical PvE Ret build. Drop a point from HotC? Hope you have an extremely dependable Ele Shammy. Imp BoM? Hope your DPS warriors (because your Prot war will probably want Commanding) are consistent. Even then, do you really want to lose that raid dps from having to rebuff every 2 minutes (assuming the right people are in range for it on a fight with a lot of movement)? There's really not much breathing room in the typical PvE Ret build in 3.2.

And no, if I'm min/maxing, I'd never drop a point out of SotP. The original discussion was whether it was better to have Prot Pallys pick up Vindication or Ret (assuming you have the luxury of both). Ideally you'd want the Prot Pally to pick it up.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Modal » Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:27 am

Dread wrote:And no, if I'm min/maxing, I'd never drop a point out of SotP. The original discussion was whether it was better to have Prot Pallys pick up Vindication or Ret (assuming you have the luxury of both). Ideally you'd want the Prot Pally to pick it up.


I still fail to see how this is ideal. Prot builds will make trade-offs to pick it up as well. I'll probably have 2/2 Vindication in both of my builds (prot and ret) in 3.2. Then again I run with 0-1 point in Imp. Devo Aura since we usually have at least one other prot paladin. There is no reason Ret has to bring Imp. BoM & HotC instead of prot, or even holy (most Holy builds that go into ret for crit have Imp. BoM, and dps warriors bring it with minimal sacrifice--don't tell me a GCD & 10 rage every 3 minutes is going to have a noticeable impact on their numbers). And really there's also no good reason that both prot and ret shouldn't bring Vindication, unless you assume they'll always be on the same target.

I agree dropping a point out of SotP is not ideal. The only reason you'd do that is if for some reason you felt like you had to bring all possible raid utility and couldn't rely on anyone else. Otherwise you just have to decide which buffs will be most useful overall given the people you run with (or respec after you know what you've got in your raid).

It's easy for Ret to pick up 2/2 Vindication and there's no reason to pretend that 2/2 Vindication is somehow less optimal than 3/3 HotC or 2/2 Imp. BoM. All are good (de)buffs, and which one is most important depends on a lot of external factors.

Also, the original discussion was not about whether it was better to have ret or prot pick it up--someone asked whether there was room in ret specs for it. There is. Sure it involves a trade-off, but one that could make sense in a lot of raid setups.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby amh » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:25 am

Also, the original discussion was not about whether it was better to have ret or prot pick it up--someone asked whether there was room in ret specs for it. There is. Sure it involves a trade-off, but one that could make sense in a lot of raid setups.


Yeah, but I guess I should have been more specific. Our raids have at least 1x prot, 1x ret, 1x holy at all times. Which one should pick it up? And it seems the answer is prot would suffer the smallest loss from doing so.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby ulushnar » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:30 am

I'm certainly intending to take it in my Prot spec post-3.2. Demo shout's up there with Thunderclap in the list of mitigation tools we used to pray for back in 2.x. Given I'm that deep in Ret any way, there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason not to take it.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Barathorn » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:01 am

Ulushnar wrote:I'm certainly intending to take it in my Prot spec post-3.2. Demo shout's up there with Thunderclap in the list of mitigation tools we used to pray for back in 2.x. Given I'm that deep in Ret any way, there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason not to take it.


Same here, I am deep into ret so its no hardship for me to pick it up.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:15 am

Vindication is an exceptional mitigation talent, since it can shave several thousand damage off of every physical attack. I haven't run the numbers, but I'd guess that over the course of a fight this will mitigate more damage per talent point than any other talent we can pick up currently. The only difference is that it can also be provided by someone else.

However, I would not be surprised if the raid DPS gained by not forcing a warrior to keep up the debuff is greater than the ~40 or so DPS that we lose by dropping 2 points out of Conviction. Similarly, I'd guess that the Ret paladin loses more by dropping two points out of SotP (or any other DPS talent for that matter) to pick it up.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Chicken » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:41 am

theckhd wrote:Similarly, I'd guess that the Ret paladin loses more by dropping two points out of SotP (or any other DPS talent for that matter) to pick it up.
Depending on your raid composition the Ret Paladin might be able to lose one of their other raid buffs in exchange for it though. These are the raid buffs Ret gives and each of their alternatives:

Attack Power buff: Warriors, though 5 talent points for full improvement versus 2, and of course needs mid-combat upkeep.
3% damage done: Beast Mastery Hunters, not (currently) an optimal spec, but some guilds probably still have one of these. Only one talent point gotten from dropping this though, so you'd have to take one away from something else too. Also causes you to lose extra damage dealt by Retribution Aura, but the effect of that is fairly negligible anyway.
3% haste: Balance Druids.
3% crit debuff: Assassination Rogues, Elemental Shamans. This does actually save you enough points for picking up Vindication, but only if you pick up Improved Might. If you don't have Improved Might, you can get this fully and just use those 2 points on Vindication though.

None of those talents provide a personal DPS increase if any of their alternatives are present either. Also in regards to the attack power buff: Obviously the Warrior can pick up Improved Demoralizing Shout as well, Demo Shout requires more time spent on keeping it up than Battle Shout does however. And the Commanding Presence talent also improves Commanding Shout, while Improved Demoralizing Shout only affects Demoralizing Shout.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby ulushnar » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:51 am

Ultimately, if it's a talent that helps reduce the damage I'm taking, I'm going to take it rather than rely on a DPSer picking it up, same as JotJ. That said, i'm leaning towards taking Vindication in my DPS spec as well, so I can reliably provide it even on fights where I don't tank.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Thels » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:20 am

So basically, Retri is one talent point short of:

2/2 Imp BoM
3/3 HotC
2/2 Vindication
1/1 Divine Sacrifice

Honestly, I haven't been aware that the last option is near mandatory for Retri nowadays. I guess it could be helpful.

However, if you assume to have both a Retridin and a Tankadin in the raid, the Tankadin will bless Sanctuary, has no need for Imp BoM and ends up with HotC. Theoretically, the Retridin could then skip HotC in favor of Vindication and not lose anything. The Tankadin would have to give up Conviction, nerfing it's own TPS.

However, that's all fine and dandy when the Retridin and the Tankadin are attacking the same target, and would require some catering into in tank assignments. If this is not well feasable, then you have the Tankadin without Vindication effect, and the DPS without HotC effect.

So yes, since the situation exists often that I'm the only one attacking my target, I will pick up vindication. If you use DK tanks (which currently lack their Vindication equivalent), someone will have to keep it up on their target, and a Retridin has the easiest time on this.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby theckhd » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:34 am

Chicken wrote:Depending on your raid composition the Ret Paladin might be able to lose one of their other raid buffs in exchange for it though.

True, but raid comps aren't always consistent from night to night. I'd love it if I could take the exact same 25 people/classes to each raid, but real-life constraints guarantee it never works out that way. In addition, I like having a little overlap on the raid buffs, just in case someone dies. Of course, you could make the same argument for Vindication, but tank death is often unrecoverable. :P

Furthermore, once you start figuring out whether the Ret can drop other talents because of other classes/specs in your raid comp, you should also consider what talents those classes/specs have to drop to provide the buff. It becomes a fairly complicated many-parameter optimization problem, and not a particularly fun one since it depends on who shows up on a given night.

My attitude has always been that if it's a buff or debuff I want up 100% of the time, and I'm capable of providing it, I should. That means that whether I'm in my usual 25-man raid, my 10-man ulduar group, a pug, a heroic, soloing, whatever, I'm still guaranteed to have that buff or debuff. This is why my spec has HotC, JotJ, PoJ, and in 3.2 will contain Vindication.

But again, it comes down to personal preference. It's my opinion that these buffs are powerful enough that I want to bring them to the table no matter what raid environment I'm in. That's a decision I made, and other people may feel and spec differently. This is especially true of people who only concern themselves with their particular 25-man raid groups, where they may be guaranteed to have someone else providing the buff or debuff.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby Modal » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:20 am

Ulushnar wrote:Ultimately, if it's a talent that helps reduce the damage I'm taking, I'm going to take it rather than rely on a DPSer picking it up, same as JotJ. That said, i'm leaning towards taking Vindication in my DPS spec as well, so I can reliably provide it even on fights where I don't tank.


Same. I think I'll probably pick it up in both specs. If all our other tankadins grab it, though, I might skip in Ret. I'll have to see what they do.
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Re: vindication worth it

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:25 am

It's already in my Ret spec! I suck at Ret anyway, though.
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