Remove Advertisements

3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Wardari » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:06 pm

My biggest problem with the new AD is purely that it does feel insanely strong to have our own version of Guardian Spirit built in and I think in its current form with all the other changes to block etc i'm concerned that Paladins will be the new "deathknight MT" and we'll be the overpowered ones that will be getting the nerfbat later.

I would prefer that we were a balanced tank, I feel this change although it sounds fantastic will make us the undoubted new MT of the game for progression raids as it's a 2 minute get out of jail free card that you don't have to activate and it concerns me that we'll be turned into the current form of a DK where we'll be so far out in front of the other tanks that they'll need to nerf us later.

In terms of pure stability we'll provide as a MT I think we'll be unrivalled, we're already able to get a huge amount of stamina as it's simply a superb stat for us in terms of threat boost and survivability, addon the block changes where we'll now be ignoring a significant portion of the bosses damage on every single blow (if we don't avoid it). These changes will make us the most stable tank to heal as the incoming damage will be at a more predictable level rather than relying on the avoidance RNG. If all that wasn't enough, for those panic moments where a heal fails to land in time/healer gets cause by something like flash freeze or the avoidance RNG fails (something we'll be less reliant on now), we have our in built Guardian Spirit every 2 minutes.

Now forgive me for being a naysayer but I am just concerned about what all this will do about the current balance between the tanks.

The only other tank that will probably come close will be Warriors as they also benefit from the new block changes, but unless they gear for rating to boost them upto the 102.7% cap they'll still be getting hit for the full blow more often than us, even if their RNG double block value talent may equate to the same amount of mitigation over a fight it's still an RNG game where as our block is a guranteed thing making us far superior in terms of stability for healers.
Wardari
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:32 am

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Tomyris » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:09 am

Wardari wrote:The only other tank that will probably come close will be Warriors as they also benefit from the new block changes, but unless they gear for rating to boost them upto the 102.7% cap they'll still be getting hit for the full blow more often than us, even if their RNG double block value talent may equate to the same amount of mitigation over a fight it's still an RNG game where as our block is a guranteed thing making us far superior in terms of stability for healers.

It's hard to compose a serious response to your concerns when they're based heavily upon the idea that Warriors and Paladins are going to benefit from the BV changes. We aren't.

There are virtually zero tanks using more than 100 BV in progression fights. Even after the change, BV gear will continue to have such horrible itemization that virtually zero tanks will use it in progression fights. This change will have no impact upon our performance within any fight worth mentioning.

That said, will we be stable and delightful to heal in 3.2? Possibly. I think that owes far more to the mitigation of AD, rather than the CD itself. How is the CD going to change the way healers play? It isn't, because they had damned well better keep spamming heals on you to make sure that you're going to survive being knocked to 30% HP.

Are there really many situations where you take a massive hit and then the boss breaks for tea? I'm struggling to imagine it. The typical AD save is going to occur as an accident caused by poor timing of heals, healer latency or LDs, or something unfortunate like standing in fire. It's going to be followed by more of the same, and all you've got at that point is your vaunted 15% extra EH. It's a pleasant talent, but so OP that it alters the way the game is played? I doubt it.
Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I attack.
— Ferdinand Foch

Tomyris — Silver Hand (US)
User avatar
Tomyris
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Marching to the Sea

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Awyndel » Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:47 am

All wonderfull descriptions of what I'm trying to point out. Worthless as a planned cooldown on let's say a plasma blast or surge of darkness, but way too OP as a lifesaver in case of spike damage or healer lapse ( wich are technically the same, too much damage with too little healing ) .

So basicly not what we asked for, and still something that guarantees a nerf in the future. Exactly blizzard style, great to know they get us so well.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby moduspwnens » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:53 am

I don't think that it's as OP as everyone seems to think it is. One hit saved does not equal a raid saved (or even the tank surviving the next). There is a lot of crying now on the official forums because I don't think they understand the situation. They keep relating this to Cheat Death, because everyone remembers how that was. You fire off a hit that would have killed the Rogue, but instead, he gets a massive damage shield (it was 99% for a while) and manages to live for an extra 5 or 6 seconds. This is what I think people are equating the new AD to be in their minds.

But it's not that. It's literally one hit saved. That's all. Honestly in most situations, I bet people won't even notice that it proc'd and the tank will die anyway. I (and I think most Paladins) would vastly prefer another Divine Protection to it simply because of the nature of most WotLK burst damage. It's predictable, it gives you warning before happening, and it lasts more than one hit. A 30% health increase over 20 seconds (or really any normal cooldown) has the potential to save you more than once every two minutes, and AD's cooldown effect will happen only once.

That brings up another reason there's so much crying: these changes are all brought under the same name: Ardent Defender. So when people say "Oh, the new Ardent Defender is so OP!" You don't know what they're actually talking about. Do they think that the "cooldown" effect is OP? In replacement of a normal cooldown, I don't think most rational tanks do. It's great for unexpected burst, but that's actually fairly rare in today's raiding scene. In my mind, the only situations in which this would actually be superior to a Last Stand-like ability would be perhaps Steelbreaker or XT-002 (Hard), and even in those situations it's debatable.

...or are they referring to the un-leapfroggable part of AD? We can't even make a judgement on how powerful this is because we don't know:
- What percentage damaged will be reduced, and
- How much of the hit will be reduced if the Paladin isn't already under 35%.

It's that simple. If AD's power is brought to 15%, it's probably reasonable. The math I've seen shows that at 30%, it's a 15% EH boost to Paladins. 15% DR would make it a 7.5% EH boost to Paladins. Is that really so crazy? I mean, we currently have the lowest EH of all tanks, and our second cooldown will now be less stellar in situations of predicted burst (i.e., you'll still be needing the raid to use their cooldowns on you for General and Mimiron). The block changes will help very little. I don't think that's too irrational of a change.

Besides, one of the things that's really haunted Paladins since we started tanking is that we're "trash tanks." Every other tank has had a period where they're the one that people perceive to be imbalanced in a good way, and people say, "Well, X is the best tank now." Paladins have never had that, and I think that we could use one to be taken seriously among the whole player base. Again, I don't expect that these changes will put us in an OP situation, but if it leads to us being recognized as much as the other tanks as being capable, I don't mind. It's also something to say in PuGs. "The Druid has X more health, but the Paladin has Ardent Defender." We finally have some up-side for being the lowest EH tank.

The tanking classes are closer than they've ever been, and I wouldn't mind being the class that they "err on the good side" for, just once. I don't think anyone can say for sure how powerful this will make Paladins.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby moduspwnens » Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:53 am

Dang, that post was longer than I thought. My bad on that.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Nadir » Sat Jun 20, 2009 5:36 pm

Are you sure we have the lowest EH of all of the tanks? We're at least as high if not higher than warriors in terms of raw HP and armor with 3.1 and ideal Ulduar gear. If DK HP and armor nerfs make it into 3.2 and epic gems are added to the mix, then we're becoming competitive with even Druid HP, although still significantly behind Druids in terms of armor.
Image
Nadir
 
Posts: 266
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 8:37 am

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby moduspwnens » Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:07 am

Here's BiS Tankin Paladin:
http://www.chardev.org/?template=214175
47374 HP

Here's BiS Tankin Warrior:
http://www.chardev.org/?template=214179
44761 HP

Dang, guess you're right. We do have Warriors beat in BiS gear.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Amaranthea » Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:01 pm

Paladins do have warriors beat in passive EH in BiS gear (and will also be ahead of DKs if current 3.2 notes go live). However, you really shouldn't use chardev profiles as standalone proof of anything. A number of the calculations it performs are just flat out wrong.
Amaranthea
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:10 pm

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Sir_Onion » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:19 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Dang, that post was longer than I thought. My bad on that.

For someone who supports the horde that was awesome. (joking about the horde part :P)


Maybe if they caused the save you from death, give you 30% of your max health, as well as grant you 30% of your max health for a duration it would be more of a "cooldown" type feel to it. So it would be like mashing Guardian Spirit with a true Last Stand ( Actually upping your health by 30%, rather then just giving you 30% of whatever your health is.), would that make it seem more effective?

I wanted to say: Well Last Stand only give your 30% more health and once a boss hits you for 30% that health is gone. Then I remembered healers will get you to the 130% if whatever your health is. :lol:


Damn it, now I am doubting it :(
Image
Sir_Onion
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:48 pm

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Wardari » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:06 am

moduspwnens wrote:I don't think that it's as OP as everyone seems to think it is. One hit saved does not equal a raid saved (or even the tank surviving the next)


A lot of the time I find it does these days, we had a 2% wipe of Vezax the other week purely due to the RNG machine failing, the rest of the fight was completely smooth, the surge of darkness had been covered perfectly with cooldowns, the DPS was well well in advance of the enrage timer and the fight was imo almost a sure fire kill. Then at 4% the RNG failed and I wasn't quite topped up in time resulting in me going down outside of a surge, just his normal melee damage, the Rogues attempted evasion tanking while the raid burnt for all they could and got him down to 300k health before he started running wild around the room Searing Flames for all and the marks healed him back to around 2% amoungst the confusion.

The new AD would have likely prevented this, be it the 2 minute CD or more than likely the new AD 35% dmg reduction tuning and the fight would have been an easy kill.

Tomyris wrote:There are virtually zero tanks using more than 100 BV in progression fights. Even after the change, BV gear will continue to have such horrible itemization that virtually zero tanks will use it in progression fights. This change will have no impact upon our performance within any fight worth mentioning.


I think you may be underestimating the effect of the block changes, I think the amount of extra block we'll gain through the librams, set bonus (all of which can be considered as a part of our static SBV now due to their double duration, meaing their buff lasts as long or longer than the proccing ability CD) plus the doubling of the SBV on our gear will actually make using it a viable stratedgy for Paladins. I'm not saying we're going to be stripping off our avoidance gear and throwing on pure block gear, but we'll be able to achieve somewhere in the region of 4-5k SBV depending on how far you push it while still maintaining a respectable level of avoidance. I believe the current max obtainable is around 2.7k for a Paladin with full buffs, although this is literally using all SBV gear and thus an unrealistic figure for and ulduar tanking set, currently in full 25 man buffs and my full avoidance gear i'm pushing about 1400 SBV with my libram up, around 1200ish without. As it stands this is an insignificant amount of damage and makes it icing on the cake mitigation, rather than something you're actively stacking.

Now doubling our block value will make this an attractive stat not because it means we'll be mitigating more, but because we'll be mitigating a more predictable amount of damage making us a more stable tank and because we can achieve unhittable without giving up much at all we can gurantee to mitigate at least that amount every single time.

Add on top the the new AD (think a blow from Vezax that takes you below 35% health, loses 30% from AD and then another 4-5k from your SBV) and our "cheat death" ability that takes us back to 30% health, addon Blood Draining enchant I think you'll find we'll be able to live through some of the heaviest damage moments without an issue.

We all know that in progression stability > all, if you can give your healers that extra second to land the heal that prevents your death then its worth doing everything you can to achieve that. This is why I am concerned that the new AD feels overpowered in combination with the block changes as if we end up being the new Blood Specced DK that cannot die due to being insanely stable and easy to heal, end up being the best MTing class by far we'll be nerfed just as they have been.
Wardari
 
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:32 am

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Tomyris » Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:58 am

@ Wardari:

I simply disagree with your assessment of BV gear. I don't believe that it's a responsible strategy for gearing, even after BV is doubled. The itemization on available BV pieces is uniformly poor, and the blows we are taking in current content are too large and slow to make such a strategy viable. To my knowledge, most of the community agrees with this analysis.
Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I attack.
— Ferdinand Foch

Tomyris — Silver Hand (US)
User avatar
Tomyris
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Marching to the Sea

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Ascendant » Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:51 am

we don't know if AD is going to still be 30% or if there is going to be a cool down on the proc (like the dk talent). regardless Block has gained a lot of ground with this change; my rough calculations put it ahead of parry for straight damage reduction and only 20% worse than dodge, but this is dependent on how well DR works to reduce exponential gains on avoidance. If both are linear scaling, block is good. Not the best stat, but it is at least as good as it was in naxx.

For me, the only thing preventing me from using block is that it puts paladins way over the block rating cap; if there was a way around that, I would definitely test it out. Overall damage taken will inccrease, overall EH will increase, and threat will probably increase slightly.
Ascendant
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:27 am

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby jere » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:09 am

moduspwnens wrote:Here's BiS Tankin Paladin:
http://www.chardev.org/?template=214175
47374 HP

Here's BiS Tankin Warrior:
http://www.chardev.org/?template=214179
44761 HP

Dang, guess you're right. We do have Warriors beat in BiS gear.


Warrior was 46761 when I loaded the page silly :wink: , but yes, we do beat them slightly in health in BiS gear.
Image
User avatar
jere
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 5:12 pm

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Darkler » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:02 am

one thing that I just came across regarding the new AD will be how it might affect PVP.

either you are a flag carrier or just PVPing as prot, with 30-35kish health, and when the opponent finally gets you to zero you dont die but pop back up to 11kish hp again, that would be frustrating.

or, you are playing as deep prot healing spec in the arena, in case it will be almost impossible to kill you. if you include the new sacred shield hot from FoL, the lowered damage over all from resilience and when dead comes back with an other "free" FoL crit and back up to fight again.

i think a lot of players who meet prot speced paladins will raise their voices..
User avatar
Darkler
 
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:57 am

Re: 3.2 Ardent Defender: worthless cooldown but completely OP

Postby Wolvar » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:14 am

Tomyris wrote:@ Wardari:

I simply disagree with your assessment of BV gear. I don't believe that it's a responsible strategy for gearing, even after BV is doubled. The itemization on available BV pieces is uniformly poor, and the blows we are taking in current content are too large and slow to make such a strategy viable. To my knowledge, most of the community agrees with this analysis.


I think it's way too early to take a position on this. If we can actually get close to 4k block value without totally gimping avoidance, it could make gearing this way very attractive for (mostly) physical boss fights.
Image
Wolvar
 
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:52 am

PreviousNext

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
?php } else { ?