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3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Vlad » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:47 am

I can't decide which one to get out of those two specs (I'm leaning more towards the threat one, but would probobly change the 2/2 imp judge on that one as I find it unnecessary.

I'm relatively new to tanking, I was a prot pally for a long time pre wotlk, but couldn't play wow for ages after the expansion came out so have only reached 80 a few weeks ago.

Currently I'm OTing Nax and other raids (only done Nax once and OS once as an OT) and lots of heroics, sometimes in heroics keeping threat is difficult, but in raids its been easy.

Just wondering which one of those two specs a more experienced tankadin would advice
Or what spec a more experienced tankadin is getting himself.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:55 am

Vlad wrote:Just wondering which one of those two specs a more experienced tankadin would advice
Or what spec a more experienced tankadin is getting himself.


I'll be using a Crusade spec with DS/DG to start with, but I don't think there's a general consensus even among experienced tankadins in favor of one or the other.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:57 am

Inscrutiable wrote:This may be a very foolish question but I see a lot of people only putting two talent points into Crusade, instead of say putting a third one in there and taking a point out of DG. Is there a reason for that? The 3/3 Crusade gives you significant threat increase (somewhere in the vicinity of 80 points Theck's Post Here) and I don't see how particularly useful DG will be if you have another holy paladin keeping Sacred Shield up on you.

I guess that would defeat the purpose of taking DG at all using that reasoning, but if so then where are the points better spent?

Three "throwaway" points are needed in order to get deeper in prot. If people had the option, I think most would move a point from DG into Crusade, but we don't have that option. Instead the debate generally comes down to 1/2 SA or 2/3 Crusade.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:04 am

Jasari wrote:Three "throwaway" points are needed in order to get deeper in prot. If people had the option, I think most would move a point from DG into Crusade, but we don't have that option. Instead the debate generally comes down to 1/2 SA or 2/3 Crusade.


If Blade Ward is viable, I'll put my throwaway points into reckoning just so it procs more often... 3.8-4% extra parry seems tasty
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:08 am

Klaudandus wrote:
Jasari wrote:Three "throwaway" points are needed in order to get deeper in prot. If people had the option, I think most would move a point from DG into Crusade, but we don't have that option. Instead the debate generally comes down to 1/2 SA or 2/3 Crusade.


If Blade Ward is viable, I'll put my throwaway points into reckoning just so it procs more often... 3.8-4% extra parry seems tasty


Do we know yet what blade ward's proc rate and/or internal CD are? My guess is that reckoning will have no noticeable effect on its uptime, but I could be wrong.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:11 am

Jasari wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Jasari wrote:Three "throwaway" points are needed in order to get deeper in prot. If people had the option, I think most would move a point from DG into Crusade, but we don't have that option. Instead the debate generally comes down to 1/2 SA or 2/3 Crusade.


If Blade Ward is viable, I'll put my throwaway points into reckoning just so it procs more often... 3.8-4% extra parry seems tasty


Do we know yet what blade ward's proc rate and/or internal CD are? My guess is that reckoning will have no noticeable effect on its uptime, but I could be wrong.


Which is why I said -If-

If the math is favorable for this enchant and the added synergy of reck helps it, then I see nothing wrong with putting 3 throwaway points in reck, till then I'll just put 'em somewhere else.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:26 am

Klaudandus wrote:If the math is favorable for this enchant and the added synergy of reck helps it, then I see nothing wrong with putting 3 throwaway points in reck, till then I'll just put 'em somewhere else.

It's worth noting that even without knowing all of the details, it's unlikely that Blade Ward (with or without Reckoning) will be anywhere close to Accuracy for threat. So the minimal gain you get by putting those 3 points in Reckoning is probably not worth it in that regard - you'd be better off switching to a weapon with Accuracy enchanted when you want threat, and using a secondary weapon with Blade Ward (assuming it turns out to be a good avoidance enchant) for avoidance fights.

That being said, throwaway points are throwaway points, and given the scenario you're talking about, putting them in reckoning to make up for some of the threat you may potentially lose by going from Accuracy to Blade Ward is as good a use as any. At least as long as you don't care for Divine Sacrifice.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby honorshammer » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:28 am

I don't see many people giving much thought to an Aura Mastery build with Improved Lay On Hands.

Aura Mastery is a multipurpose button. Know a fear is coming? Switch to CA and pop it. Got nailed by a big hit? Pop it for double armor for a few seconds. Big fire or frost blast coming? Switch to the appropiate Resistance aura and pop it.

I know you have to spend 5 marginally useful points in Holy to move up the tree. I use those in Divine Intellect to increase (slightly) the regen from Divine Plea and Replenishment.

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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:33 am

theckhd wrote:It's worth noting that even without knowing all of the details, it's unlikely that Blade Ward (with or without Reckoning) will be anywhere close to Accuracy for threat. So the minimal gain you get by putting those 3 points in Reckoning is probably not worth it in that regard - you'd be better off switching to a weapon with Accuracy enchanted when you want threat, and using a secondary weapon with Blade Ward (assuming it turns out to be a good avoidance enchant) for avoidance fights.

That being said, throwaway points are throwaway points, and given the scenario you're talking about, putting them in reckoning to make up for some of the threat you may potentially lose by going from Accuracy to Blade Ward is as good a use as any. At least as long as you don't care for Divine Sacrifice.


My main concern is not threat but avoidance - parry has always been my weakest point. I can probably raise my parry to 20% if I wanted but it would be a net loss by exchanging block for parry (I rather like being block capped).

Even with my current spec, threat has not been an issue. I will pick up the high threat spec everyone here is discussing on this thread, its just those 3 "throwaway" prot points that I keep looking at and see what would be better for me.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:38 am

Honorshammer wrote:I don't see many people giving much thought to an Aura Mastery build with Improved Lay On Hands.

Aura Mastery is a multipurpose button. Know a fear is coming? Switch to CA and pop it. Got nailed by a big hit? Pop it for double armor for a few seconds. Big fire or frost blast coming? Switch to the appropiate Resistance aura and pop it.

I know you have to spend 5 marginally useful points in Holy to move up the tree. I use those in Divine Intellect to increase (slightly) the regen from Divine Plea and Replenishment.

13/52/6


I thought about doing a build with AM and/or imp LoH, but it just didn't seem worth it to me. If I come across a hard mode encounter where it seems like that type of build would make a substantial difference I might try it out. But for a general build, I'd much rather take the solid increase in DPS/TPS.

A survival oriented spec has its merits, they're just too situational for my taste.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Kheben » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:58 am

Personally, I think I'll be using the 0/53/18 build, but swap 2 points from Conviction into PoJ. I kind of like having the extra movement speed on Tuskarr's Vitality, and I don't think it'll hurt too much to grab a bit more at the cost of 2% crit and swap over to the 22 stam enchant. I know it may not be optimal dps/tps, but I'll at least give it a try for now.

Quick edit - Or maybe not. I can't make up my damn mind. That and I might throw a point into Benediction instead of 2/2 Imp Judge. Hrm, damn these are some tough calls.
Last edited by Kheben on Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Ezikiel » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:00 pm

lets see if i get this right, if i specc into Divine Guardian, and have a holy paladin cast SS on me, i dont benefit from the 100% longer uptime and 20% more damage absorbed
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:10 pm

Ezikiel wrote:lets see if i get this right, if i specc into Divine Guardian, and have a holy paladin cast SS on me, i dont benefit from the 100% longer uptime and 20% more damage absorbed

Correct, the talent only affects SS that you cast.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby portalseeker » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:12 pm

Klaudandus wrote:(I rather like being block capped).


Um, maybe sounding a little noobish, but please explain this or if someone has any links for this. I did not think you could be 'block capped', at least for lvl 80+ mobs.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:15 pm

portalseeker wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:(I rather like being block capped).


Um, maybe sounding a little noobish, but please explain this or if someone has any links for this. I did not think you could be 'block capped', at least for lvl 80+ mobs.


Ok, bad wording - I was referring to the 102.4% avoidance threshold
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