3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:31 pm

Your threat build is not maximized.

The maximal threat build is similar to this:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=000000000000000000000000000500503500313231133331232150122050000300000000000000&glyph=240717050406&version=9767

Options are going full HotC and not picking Imp Blessing of Might, in which case you could put the spare point in Imp Judgements (kind of a waste as there is no real use to 8 second judgements). However, HotC and Imp BoM are wasted if you run regularly with Ret Pallies.

In my case, since we often run without ret paladins, I specced Imp Might...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufdxf0x0c is not pure threat.

DS and DG do nothing for threat.

While I do agree that Reckoning is our lowest threat per point, it still adds threat.

The only real flexibilty we have in our max threat build is where we put our (semi-wasted) points in the Ret tree.

I still look at DS and DG as talents in the prot tree for Holy or Ret to spec into. If I am tanking/off-tanking in Ulduar, the stuff hits hard enough that you won't want to have DS up...and casting SS on yourself ruins your threat rotation.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:36 pm

Reckoning is so marginal in benefit that I'd consider it optional even in a threat focused build. Also, if you are responsible for keeping Sacred Shield up on yourself DG is more threat than 3 points in Reck (due to the gain of one judgment per minute).

As for SS "ruining" your threat rotation.....it takes away about 1 judgment every 30 seconds without DG, 1 every minute with DG, not exactly what I'd call disastrous.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:08 pm

Dorvan wrote:Reckoning is so marginal in benefit that I'd consider it optional even in a threat focused build. Also, if you are responsible for keeping Sacred Shield up on yourself DG is more threat than 3 points in Reck (due to the gain of one judgment per minute).

As for SS "ruining" your threat rotation.....it takes away about 1 judgment every 30 seconds without DG, 1 every minute with DG, not exactly what I'd call disastrous.


How are you 'gaining' a judgment with the DG build...I would assume you mean loss of a judgement (as you have to replace a judgment cast with SS)

I believe THECKD did the math on Reckoning, and if you work it out, the loss of the tps from the dropped judgment and the loss of the tps from reckoning easily outweighs any threat gain from SS.

Reckoning grants ~11.2DPS/16.3TPS per talent point.
JoV is about: 2621 Damage / 7100 Threat

The net of the JoV (that was dropped for the SS cast) and reckoning is about 10,000 threat per minute. So, assuming that SS generates the same threat that healing does, it would have to provide the equvalent of 20,000 in heals per minute to give you equivalent threat.

The proc on SS is limited to once every 6 seconds I believe, but fully talented absorbs 20% more damage.

Given the above assumptions, you would have to have in excess of 1500SP when buffed and actually using the charge every 6 seconds to generate the same threat.

Also, ever since Blizzard eliminated the threat we get from JoL, I have been suspicious of the threat generated from self-healing for prot specced paladins.
Last edited by Garath.Gorefiend on Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:11 pm

I think he's saying that, assuming you're keeping SS up regardless of whether or not your spec'd for it, then DG allows you to cast 1 extra judgement every 60 seconds because you don't have to reapply SS as soon.

No DG: You cast SS 2 times every minute
DG: You cast SS 1 time every minute.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:13 pm

Jasari wrote:I think he's saying that, assuming you're keeping SS up regardless of whether or not your spec'd for it, then DG allows you to cast 1 extra judgement every 60 seconds because you don't have to reapply SS as soon.

No DG: You cast SS 2 times every minute
DG: You cast SS 1 time every minute.


Ah, whereas I am assuming that I am not casting it at all...thats what holy pallies are for, there SS is better than mine.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:16 pm

Looks at what I said again.....*assuming you're keeping up SS regardless*, DG gains you one judgment a minute. That is, instead of replacing Judgment with SS twice a minute, you only have to do so once.

The gain is very roughly about 80 tps in theck's set up: 40 tps per point if you're just counting DG, 27 tps per point for DS/DG. DG has zero threat benefit if you're not putting up SS on yourself, but my statement didn't imply in any way otherwise.

Ah, whereas I am assuming that I am not casting it at all...thats what holy pallies are for, there SS is better than mine.


Assuming you have a Holy Pally in raid, and there aren't any other tanks that need it as well. I certainly have no problem saying it's situational.

Mainly, my point was the Reck is such a tiny benefit that it's silly to criticize a threat build for not taking it....the difference is negligible as long as you're using SoV.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Jasari » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:19 pm

tl;dr - 3/5 divinity, DS+DG, and 3/5 reckoning are all sub-par talents.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Dorvan » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:20 pm

Jasari wrote:tl;d - 3/5 divinity, DS+DG, and 3/5 reckoning are all sub-par talents.


Yep. It's the same thing as putting that one point in Ret towards 2/2 Judgment or 1/5 Benediction, they're both so marginal that it's pretty silly to criticize one selection or the other.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:54 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Jasari wrote:tl;d - 3/5 divinity, DS+DG, and 3/5 reckoning are all sub-par talents.


Yep. It's the same thing as putting that one point in Ret towards 2/2 Judgment or 1/5 Benediction, they're both so marginal that it's pretty silly to criticize one selection or the other.


Alright, not gonna argue about the fact that they are all pretty damn marginal talents...heh...frankly, like most of you, I wish we had viable alternatives to the semi-wasted points.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Muffswindler » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:56 am

/agreed. Still, gotta love the buffs they gave us this patch.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby honorshammer » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:06 am

Fenrir wrote:I would point out that threat is really easy to acquire unless your playing with extremely high geared dps (ex: A rouge/hunter/mage in T7.5) so I don't understand why you go threat builds early on - unless you know your going to be playing with high dps characters... Maybe I'm just not thinking it through all the way

I would go Imp. LoH just due to that 3.1 is said to be actually "hard" PvE, while I won't believe it for me, I can guess players who've had it easy in 25s will find this particularly difficult, so survivability might be more suited esp. if you had raidmates who havn't done TBC/Classic content, again, feel free to correct me if I'm thinking backwards >.<


I'm really enjoying my Imp LoH build. I've had zero threat problems so far and I have been able to use Lay On Hands nearly every attempt. I do need to get better communicating with my healers and letting them know I'm doing it. I'm thinking a Raid Warning Message macro'ed to my Lay On Hands to let them know I just popped it.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby honorshammer » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:11 am

Griffonheart wrote:With that said, I think 0/53/18 is still standard, because all the utilities you might gain from specing otherwise could be overcome by good teamwork (in time).


I really don't understand this. Right now, we're brand new into a new tier of content. Yes, it's nice to epeen over your TPS numbers and if your healers are keeping up without issue, that's fantastic.

In my guild, we are wiping a lot in Ulduar. I want everything I can to help me stay alive and an Imp. Lay On Hands build does just that.

I know as Paladin tanks we've fought to get away from the Holy tree, but it doesn't make you less of a Paladin to have points in there.

You want to go 53/18 especially for PoJ, I won't argue with you. I've seen those PoJ debates reach near religous fervor. I don't agree that 0/53/18 is the 'standard' or 'cookie cutter'. We have TWO good, viable builds. 0/53/18 and 12/53/6. The choice between the two is a choice of survivabilitiy versus threat. You pick the one you want to augment.
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Re: 3.1 Talent build conclusion (?)

Postby Soliro » Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:32 am

I agree with Honorshammer, we dont really need the extra threat and imo if a protection Paladin does then they need to some some reading and stand next to a dummy doing 969696 until its imprinted into the cerebral matter and is subconsciously done

The down side i see with the extra points in Holy is in the fact there is 2 more 'oh crap' buttons to press and get used too, this may sound good in practice but with LoH i'll be honest by the time i've gone to hit it i'm normally dead or half health from a pally finishing his Holy Light - ofc there are times where your low health for quite a while and AD has saved you and not been leapfrogged and perhaps the healers could have done better and you do have time to hit LoH - but I for one have used it plenty of times at half health due to that 0.5 secs that the 1 or 2 Holy Pallies need to complete that big heal after having to move or readjust because of something happening in the encounter

The other one is ofc Aura Mastery and I really do see the upside of this button, and it makes me think about changing to this type of spec

The benefit of having more points in ret is ofc PoJ and this extra speed, as small as it is, makes up for for the slight bad reactions we have in progression raids as we simply arent sure, or have zero clue, of what is coming up

Personally i'm running 53/18, but if this damage becomes more (Deconstructor didnt look half as bad as I thought and Razorscale hits any tank hard with 12+ fire debuffs anyway) i will consider the 12/53/6 a bit more
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