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PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Strykker » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:16 am

So more accurately its ~1% dps/tps vs 7 stam and 7% run speed?

I love being able to run faster but I also love putting out higher numbers.

Can't decide which to trade off. :?
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Mizak » Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:17 pm

I find PoJ to be invaluable on a PvP server.....whether it's chasing down the enemy or being able to outrun them. Also helps in BGs and WG.

As far as PvE content, I agree this debate has no definitive answer. I personally like the run speed, I get to mobs quicker, I don't have to be as exact with my timing on movements (like dodging void zones with KT for example). I never get hit by lava waves on Sarth, I never get hit by void zones, I never die doing the Safety Dance.....can this be done without runspeed? Absolutely. I just think my margin of safety is larger with the increased run speed.

For this I sacrifice 2% crit. IMO, it's worth it, because I haven't ever had issues with threat, and it's only a marginal increase in DPS, and let's face it, prot pallies are not even close to being a DPS class like DK tanks can sometimes be, so why even worry about it.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:00 pm

PoJ increases the speed in which you can chain-pull mobs, thereby increasing DP uptime. +1 for PoJ.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Strykker » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:34 pm

Mizak wrote:I find PoJ to be invaluable on a PvP server.....whether it's chasing down the enemy or being able to outrun them. Also helps in BGs and WG.

As far as PvE content, I agree this debate has no definitive answer. I personally like the run speed, I get to mobs quicker, I don't have to be as exact with my timing on movements (like dodging void zones with KT for example). I never get hit by lava waves on Sarth, I never get hit by void zones, I never die doing the Safety Dance.....can this be done without runspeed? Absolutely. I just think my margin of safety is larger with the increased run speed.

For this I sacrifice 2% crit. IMO, it's worth it, because I haven't ever had issues with threat, and it's only a marginal increase in DPS, and let's face it, prot pallies are not even close to being a DPS class like DK tanks can sometimes be, so why even worry about it.


Yup, dance can be done without run speed, even with ~500ms. It is lag spikes that kill people usually.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby æ » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:18 pm

Jasari wrote:Now lets have 5 pages of discussion, half of us can claim PoJ isn't needed and the other half can claim it's super beneficial on a ton of stuff and by the end we won't reach any consensus.

Jasari wrote:PoJ definitely is beneficial for 3D Sarth... I still don't spec for it. But it's inaccurate to say that it doesn't help on that encounter.


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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Frickit » Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:56 am

leperkhaun wrote:go 5/5 conviction and learn to not need PoJ. its nice but there is nothing that requires it and there wont be anything that requires it (thus far). If you pvp thats another story, get it.

also go 22 stam.

my thoughts.


Everyday I log and I think long and hard about this topic and inevitably come to this conclusion. I realize that the stamina and the damage/threat is the winner. Tomorrow I will log again and try for an hour to convince myself to take PoJ or Tuskarrs and I will lose the argument and keep conviction. God I hate being slow.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:47 am

Frickit wrote:Everyday I log and I think long and hard about this topic and inevitably come to this conclusion. I realize that the stamina and the damage/threat is the winner. Tomorrow I will log again and try for an hour to convince myself to take PoJ or Tuskarrs and I will lose the argument and keep conviction. God I hate being slow.

I gave up and went with 3/5 Conviction 2/2 PoJ. As I suspected, once I had PoJ for a while (in Ret spec) I became addicted (I always used Tuskarr's in the past, because I already knew I loved run speed).

My decision in no small part had to do with the size and scale of the fights in Ulduar. There are many that involve large battlefields and encourage the raid to spread out to fill that space. Being a little faster to run across the room to be in range of taunt has saved several healers already in the past week.

Would I have been able to do the same with Tuskarr's and 5/5 Conviction? Probably, but I'll take any slim chance I can get at this point. So far our boss wipes generally tend to be caused by two major factors: tank deaths and dps/healer deaths. The reasons behind these vary, but none of them would be helped by Conviction, whereas PoJ has a very slim chance of preventing the second type.

We haven't had one boss wipe at 1-2%, nor any boss wipes due to tanks losing aggro. That indicates to me that the last two points in Conviction aren't really any better an investment than PoJ as far as progression goes, and that in the end it comes down to what we've been saying for several pages - it's really up to the player. Spend those two pre-Crusade points however you see fit.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby theothersteve7 » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:58 pm

I've had three boss wipes at <1% in Ulduar so far. The worst part is that two of them were freak accidents. Still, I'd consider lowered movement speed a slight liability- frankly the only fight where PoJ is useless are Flame Lev. There's always fire to not stand in or adds to pick up.

Regardless, I personally think that the ability to quickly pick up adds is a vital role to any tank. I tend to get add duty because I have the best snap threat and the best trash mitigation in my guild; it's just the strengths of the Paladin. Good reaction time and the ability to think quick in a panic situation helps too.

I think MT is overrated. Sure, staring at the giant monster crotch is an adrenaline rush, but when it comes down to it, most fights you just end up standing there hammering your rotation most of the fight. Adds tanks get to have more fun the majority of the time.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Eaglestrike » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:15 pm

General Vezax.

Get PoJ.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Marvel » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:57 am

Eaglestrike wrote:General Vezax.

Get PoJ.


I switched to 3/5 Conviction and picked up 2/2 PoJ (with +22 Stamina on boots) and had a noticeably easier time kiting the General Vezax encounter as well as the constant movement needed for Razorscale.

Also what Theck said - I haven't found a situation where the ~1% DPS (if that) would have made a difference in an encounter, but being able to move faster, whether it be for picking up adds or getting to a new spot, can be very beneficial. Perhaps PoJ (or any movement speed increase) is not necessary, but I personally think it's better to have it when learning new content rather than going 5/5 Conviction.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Viycktor » Tue May 05, 2009 2:11 pm

It's always hard to justify utility vs. main role.
Our main role is damage mitigation and threat.

There are cases where it's arguable that +movement gives you better mitigation and/or threat in the form of quicker time to boss/adds for both pick-up and after a knock-back, but if any of those situations are the difference between life and death for any raid member is certainly debatable.

In the end, I look at my limitations as a tank. As a Paladin, I don't have charge/intercept or intervene, one of my limitations is mobility. Philosophically those two talent points are justifiable to me. If one of my limitations as a tank was threat, I'd feel otherwise.

I use a similar argument for DG. Though I've yet to get alot of usefulness out of that talent yet (managed to get myself killed in a heroic before macroing it to DP though!).
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Mieko » Wed May 06, 2009 2:52 am

I've been fiddling with my spec a lot since 3.1 and my most recent one (and so far the best I've found) is this : this

its 0/51/20 with 5/5 conviction and PoJ and 3/3 Crusade. I left out JotJ (thought I'd miss it but I dont, yet) and spent my random 3 low level prot points in Reckoing which I thought would be silly but gave it a shot anyway.

Threat is through the roof compared to other builds I've tried and I'm loving it. Nice to be able to have conviction, PoJ and crusade even if it means a bit of "strangeness" in both trees. I'm not quite through testing it out as much as I'd like to yet but really loving it so far.
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Dantriges » Wed May 06, 2009 3:49 am

I think it was a valid discussion when i was 5/60/6 against 58/13. A chunk of threat against utility. Now it´s what 78 tps against utility you need for Vezax and some of other bosses. Theck stated quite a few occasions in Ulduar where he profited from faster run.

You don´t lose much for a very nice utility. It won´t make you useless not to have the run speed but 2% crit won´t make you an inferior tank. I am missing it with my DK frost tank. K, I can switch for speed but stil a hassle to expend the runes and oh my god don´forget to switch back. :D

Also I like the name of the talent Pursuit of Justice. :D
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Gowron » Wed May 06, 2009 4:58 am

As member of the now extinct sanctuary-tanks, I love having my turbo-GTI back
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Re: PoJ / Tuskarr vs Conviction

Postby Gowron » Wed May 06, 2009 5:01 am

Gowron wrote:As member of the now extinct sanctuary-tanks, I love having my turbo-GTI back


grmmble, Sancity (or how do you spell that again) I mean, and why can't I edit my own post on this pc
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