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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Dorvan » Fri Apr 03, 2009 5:45 pm

Again, we really don't need to launch into a pro-/anti- Divinity debate every time someone posts a build that does or does not include it. For information and discussion of that talent specifically, there's already this lovely thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=21152

No need to derail this one.
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby majiben » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:28 pm

Dorvan wrote:Again, we really don't need to launch into a pro-/anti- Divinity debate every time someone posts a build that does or does not include it. For information and discussion of that talent specifically, there's already this lovely thread:

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... =1&t=21152

No need to derail this one.

The beauty of phbb3 is topics can be split then merged. So no harm done if that's done.

Also Divinity may not be worthless but you're asymptotal to it. I want to see a wipe prevented or possibly prevented by divinity before it can be considered a survival tool.
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Dorvan » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:52 pm

Majiben wrote:Also Divinity may not be worthless but you're asymptotal to it. I want to see a wipe prevented or possibly prevented by divinity before it can be considered a survival tool.


I think you picked the wrong word there. At any rate...the topic isn't Divinity so while we could always rely on the moderators to clean things up later, I don't think it's unreasonable to save them some trouble by showing some restraint, briefly suggesting some pros and cons, and referring to the main topic on the matter for more in-depth discussion of the issue.
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Tubben » Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:16 am

I will probably spec 0/52/19

Just not sure if 3 SoB and 1 Crusade or 3 Crusade and 1 SoB is more DPS/Threat. I am also wondering if 5/52/14 is more DPS than the first build above. But to be honest, i am a player not an theckhd :P

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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Folstar » Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:57 am

Tubben wrote:I will probably spec [url=http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tAbuMGsIufzts0x0u]0/52/19[/url

Keldan


Why no points in JotJ? That is not very cookie cutter.

Assuming you will ever be in a non-96969 situation, the spare point in tier1/2 of ret. is probably better spent in 2/2 Imp. Judgement. With the changes to GbtL/DP the nearly nonexistent benefit of 1/5 Benediction is even less in 3.1, whereas judging more in solo, trash, whatever play is often beneficial.

Crusade > SoB. +damage is going to beat equal +crit every time, especially when its often times twice as much +damage. Unless you plan on using exorcism a lot- in that event maybe SoB > Crusade... though even then I doubt it.
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Tubben » Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:41 am

Folstar wrote:
Tubben wrote:I will probably spec [url=http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tAbuMGsIufzts0x0u]0/52/19[/url


Why no points in JotJ? That is not very cookie cutter.


JotJ: The melee reduce dont work on bosses, plus there are several other classes who has this also. A 40 second HoJ is nice, but i dont really need it. I dont use it that much, that it would make that much of a difference. If i spend 2 more point into prot, i would put them into Guardians Fervor, i use Hand of Freedom PRETTY often in Raids.

I dont farm, i dont do 5 mans, and i dont PvP.

Folstar wrote:Assuming you will ever be in a non-96969 situation, the spare point in tier1/2 of ret. is probably better spent in 2/2 Imp. Judgement. With the changes to GbtL/DP the nearly nonexistent benefit of 1/5 Benediction is even less in 3.1, whereas judging more in solo, trash, whatever play is often beneficial.


Aye, you got an point, nothing more to add :-)

Folstar wrote:Crusade > SoB. +damage is going to beat equal +crit every time, especially when its often times twice as much +damage. Unless you plan on using exorcism a lot- in that event maybe SoB > Crusade... though even then I doubt it.


Well, then 0/52/19.

Thanks for your reply.

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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Dorvan » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:53 am

Tubben wrote:JotJ: The melee reduce dont work on bosses, plus there are several other classes who has this also. A 40 second HoJ is nice, but i dont really need it. I dont use it that much, that it would make that much of a difference. If i spend 2 more point into prot, i would put them into Guardians Fervor, i use Hand of Freedom PRETTY often in Raids.


JotJ does work on bosses. It is an absolutely essential talent.
Last edited by Dorvan on Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby guillex » Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:55 am

Yeah, where'd you pick up the notion that JotJ wasn't applicable to bosses?
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Tubben » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:39 am

Guillex wrote:Yeah, where'd you pick up the notion that JotJ wasn't applicable to bosses?


I was under the impression i did read it somewhere here. Just did a search for "jotw and boss" and like every post i came up with said it works on bosses. Clearly i was wrong, well - :oops: - makes my build kind of nonsense.

Thank you alot for correcting me.

So, i am left with 0/54/17.

Even if i was wrong, it was good to write here - Gave me the chance to get corrected.

Thanks again.
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby majiben » Sat Apr 04, 2009 10:45 am

Analysis has shown that 1/2 SA should be enough to sustain a full rotation, feel free to test it out when 3.1 hits, you might be able to go 0/53/18
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Holyday » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:29 pm

Spectrum wrote:Divinity seems useful to me. 5% additional healing is like 5% damage reduction as far as the amount of healing needed goes.


Divinity is trash, I am sorry to say. All your healers will say is "gee thanks, higher overhealing numbers".
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby majiben » Sat Apr 04, 2009 1:54 pm

Anyways back on topic for SA here's the math
Majiben wrote:
Imapler wrote:To take, or not to take, points in SA

Mana lost per second:
Code: Select all
Skill  Mana Effective Cooldown  m/s
ShoR   263   6      43,83
HotR   263   6      43,83
HS   439   9      48,78
Cons   966   9      107,3
Judg   219   9      24,3

devided them by their cooldown and added them toghter

268,04 mana lost per second



Divine plea mana per second:
Code: Select all
Max mana raid buffed~ 7500
DP 25% over 15s = 1875 mana
125 mana per second back from DP


BoSanct Mana per second:
Code: Select all
Block cap = 102,4
Swing time = 2.4s
Miss chance = 9,34

I got my miss chance by using 5+dr(GetCombatRating(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)/122.962 = 9,34

BlockCap - Miss = BoSProc
Attacks/s * BosProc = BoSProc/S
Mana * ManaBackFromBoS * BoSProc/s

And with numbers:
102,4-9,34=93,06%
(1/2.4)*0,9306=0,38775
7000*0,38775*0,02=54,285

~54,285 mana per second back from BoSanct


Mana from Replenishment
Code: Select all
Mana * Replenishment = Mana back from Replenishment

7500*0,0025=18,75


Mana from JoW
Code: Select all
PPM / Minute = Proc per second
15/60=0,25

BaseMana * 2% = ManaReturned
4394*0,02=87,88

ManaReturned * PPS = mana back per second
87,88*0,25=21,97


How much DTPS do we need for +-0
Code: Select all
SA 5%
Spent 268,04
DP 125
BoSanct 54,285
Replenishment 18,75
JoW PPM 21,97

Spent - Gained = MissingMana/s
MissingMana/s / SA = DTPS

Without BoSanct
268,04-125=143,04
143,04/0,05=2860,8

With BoSanct
268,04-125-54,285=88,755
88,755/0,05=1775,1

With Replenishment, BoSanct and JoW
268,04-125-54,285-21,97-18,75=48,035
48,035/0,05=960,7


TL;DR

DTPS needed
Without BoSanct
2860,8

With BoSanct
1775,1

With BoSanct and Replenishment and JoW
960,7

Conclusion: There is no need to take more then 1 point in SA
This would seem to disagree with you.
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Asterial » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:32 am

Well thanks all for the mostly helpful comments about the upcoming 3.1 talents.
Some useful information about Divinity and possible higher damage with Conviction/Crusade.

Dorvan I would like a confirmation of your post for the 53/18 spec. I have built my own and wondered if it is what you had also come up with.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tAbuMusIufdts0tb

It looks like the patch (for Euro) will be on Wednesday 22nd April (as Noblegarden starts on the following Sunday).

We all await with baited breath.
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Dorvan » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:42 am

Asterial wrote:We all await with bated breath.


Fixed, because sometimes little things like that just annoy me :P
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Re: Cookie Cutter??

Postby Asterial » Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:51 am

Dorvan wrote:
Asterial wrote:We all await with bated breath.


Fixed, because sometimes little things like that just annoy me :P


tut tut...

I would'nt try to correct my grammar.
--------------------------------------------------------
"Bated breath
Meaning

Breathing that is subdued because of some emotion or difficulty.

Origin
Which is it - bated or baited? We have baited hooks and baited traps, but bated - what's that? Bated doesn't even seem to be a real word, where else do you hear it? Having said that 'baited breath' makes little sense either. How can breath be baited? With worms?"
---------------------------------------------------------

I take it "baited" is an americanism?

The correct use of the phrase is actually BATED from the verb "to bate" which is to moderate or restrain.







Anyway.. what has this got to do with my asking for a confirmation of talent spec ????

:wink:
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