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Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby hopps » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:58 pm

Panzerdin wrote:Rather depends how remote you like your remotes :D


I like them on a boat.


Really though, 5 pages on AD? This is like a hyjal, mid BT discussion....for those that don't run AD, grab tankadin 2, spec 3/3 and turn on the AD warnings. Come back and post in a week with how many times it saved you and whether your raid would have wiped if you died.

I saw it save me from dieing in a few progression kills in BT and Sunwell (tanking a side on M'uru without cc anyone? I had to shut off the RW because I was spamming the raid)

While its random as hell, I'll spend 3 points for a 2% chance of not dieing and not getting a kill for the night.

and speccing 2/3 AD is just like the people that specced 3/5 back in the day.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:21 pm

hopps wrote:Really though, 5 pages on AD?


Looks like I re-opened Pandora's box - Not really my intention tho - Like I said, my concern came from reading buncha comments on AD over at the tanking forums in wow and how many of the progression tanks were skipping it when going into ulduar.

I was gonna keep AD regardless on my main spec - my intention was to find out if there was an alternative so I could have a secondary prot spec in my 2nd talent tree - since I'm going prot/prot for my dual spec.

Truth is, like stated earlier in the thread, there is no real alternative - but I did let my mind wander wondering what other tanks had to say about it.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Seloei » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:14 am

Fact is, only a very select few bosses don't leapfrog AD in 25 man ulduar. I was using it all the time when we were there, overall... after each fight, it mitigated like 3-10k on trash and 0k on bosses (unless if i was on adds then it mitigated 1% or smth). From that point of view, that it does almost nothing to a maintank build it's useless 3 points but you still have to find those 3 points to spend somewhere.
My latest build will have 2/2 hammer of justice and 2/2 sa instead of AD, because i haven't noticed once in ulduar, where i hadn't been leapfrogged by AD or it wasn't already a wipe in progress when i died.

edit: in 10 man, yes it will probably save your life dozens of times, since the melee swings are most of the time 1/3 of what they are in 25 mans, so there it is useful. All depends which you focus on more.

edit2: The only time AD was useful was in the gauntlet on thorim, when i had to pull the 2. boss and had 1 add left on me, thats the only time AD proced and saved my life. Could of popped a healthstone/cooldown and would of had the same effect.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Oryann » Sun May 03, 2009 3:25 pm

So I looked at this and did some napkin math. I have 41k HP raid buffed, and my Argent Defender triggers at 14350 HP. From what I have seen while tanking in Ulduar I am taking between 17,000 and 21,000 per swing. If I am at exactly 34.99% HP and I take a hit for 18,000 it will still take 14,440 damage leaving me at -50HP which would leave me a dead little blood elf. Regardless I will still be taking AD for lack of a better option.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Koatanga » Sun May 03, 2009 4:56 pm

Although I still take AD, I agree that most bosses we are seeing now leapfrog it as a matter of course and it appears to be a useless talent for Ulduar.

Having said that, Ulduar isn't the only thing I tank.

Having said THAT, the other content is so much easier that healers who can make it in Ulduar should never get in trouble healing me anywhere else.

Bottom line: Doesn't look like a very useful talent anymore.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Vengence » Sun May 03, 2009 6:23 pm

Oryann wrote:So I looked at this and did some napkin math. I have 41k HP raid buffed, and my Argent Defender triggers at 14350 HP. From what I have seen while tanking in Ulduar I am taking between 17,000 and 21,000 per swing. If I am at exactly 34.99% HP and I take a hit for 18,000 it will still take 14,440 damage leaving me at -50HP which would leave me a dead little blood elf. Regardless I will still be taking AD for lack of a better option.


My math could be off, but if you got hit and were at 34.99% health, wouldnt that next hit that would have hit you for 18k actually hit you for 30% less and you would be a live little blood elf:)

you might have taken that into account, i dont know.

I might just be trying to get this to 6 pages :P
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Vengence » Sun May 03, 2009 6:24 pm

Edit: No i see you added it, but i came up with the hit hitting you for 12,600.

is my math off?
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Koatanga » Sun May 03, 2009 6:52 pm

I think the 12.6k is correct, but the point is there is a very narrow window (between 12.6k and 14.35k) in which AD would do him any good at all.

If you have a boss hitting for 18k on a 41k health pool, then the first hit takes you to 23, the next one takes you to 5. At 5 you are in AD territory, but need at least 7.6k heals to let you survive the next blow. But, if that turns out to be a 10k heal, you're above AD range and back to being dead again.

And let's face it - if you are getting hit with 7k-9k in there you are dead anyway.

So in a "real" encounter, I wouldn't expect AD to proc much at all. If Ulduar is all you're doing, then it seems to me AD is a waste of talent points. You'd probably be better off spending them in Divinity because at least that would do something.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby majiben » Sun May 03, 2009 9:26 pm

Your logic is poor.

Back it up better.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Khayne » Mon May 04, 2009 12:06 am

We do get hot ticks in, earth shield procs, Disco priests throw around 5k absorbs, Sacred shield is usually up for every second of enemy hits.

We don't usually go 100%=>3 normal swings=>dead.

attleast for me it's more:

100%=>swing+special=>few random little heals such as, Chain heal bounce, earth shield proc=>another swing and dead.

All this does make me consider divinity now and then, and if it was 2% incoming heal/point then i'd propably take it.
But as things are i rather take AD.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Koatanga » Mon May 04, 2009 1:12 am

Majiben wrote:Your logic is poor.

Back it up better.


The arguments have already been made - I'm just highlighting how narrow the window is between when AD kicks in and when you don't have enough health to survive the hit.

Yes, the window is there, if you have sufficient health, but it is very small. The odds of hitting that window (or getting hit while in the window) are proportionately small. Thus the benefit of AD is also proportionately small.

Maybe not the greatest logic in the world, but it works.
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Worldie » Mon May 04, 2009 5:21 am

The thing is, that window is generally increased by a good 6-10k HP by the effect of PWS, Divine Aegis and SS. If you add those in the calculation, AD suddently becomes much more appealing. At least for myself, when someone gets low, the first thing i do at him is throwing a PW:S
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby neokai » Tue May 05, 2009 11:15 am

Worldie wrote:The thing is, that window is generally increased by a good 6-10k HP by the effect of PWS, Divine Aegis and SS. If you add those in the calculation, AD suddently becomes much more appealing. At least for myself, when someone gets low, the first thing i do at him is throwing a PW:S


I presume you are disc. spec?

1 suggestion for the imp AD discussion is to incorporate the Priest talent Guardian Spirit or Rogue talent Cheat Death into it.

Guardian Spirit incorporated: (activate) Infuses paladin with holy vigor, increasing benefits from healing by 10/20/30%. Any attack that will kill the paladin outright will instead leave him with 5/10/15% hp left. (i.e. becomes our Last Stand of sorts with a different mechanic).
Cheat Death incorporated: 10% chance that a hit which will kill you leaves you with 10% hp instead and -30% reduction to all damage taken. (1 min internal cd)
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Worldie » Tue May 05, 2009 6:12 pm

What priest nowadays isn't discipline specced, Discipline is so terribly overpowered compared to holy.

Disc priests are very common nowadays, and they throw retarded bubbles around, amplifyng the effects of AD. I got a 12k absorb today while tanking Kologarn Heroic which combined with my Ardent Defender morphed a 25k+ hit into a 5k hit :|
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Re: Leapfrogging Ardent Defender

Postby Barsine » Tue May 05, 2009 7:14 pm

None of our priests are discipline. ;o
Guardian Spirit is so good compared to Pain Suppression.
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