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3.1 build 9733

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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Jasari » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:25 am

Ata wrote:imo the imp LoH tank build should drop divinity for stoicism.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

3% more healing done out or in (6% if you heal yourself which generally isn't practical as a tank) isn't as worth as being able to shake off the seemingly numerous stun-type effects which cause us to take a serious beating.


I can't think of a single boss fight during which I've been stunned.


Wait! That's a lie, I believe I was stunned once while tanking blazes/whelps when I got to close to Sarth's tail.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Ata » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:29 am

Anub'arak springs readily to mind, with his pound ability. I've only recently hit 80, and I have an erractic schedule so I've only just done my first raids in the last week (10man Sarth, 10man Naxx, 25 man Vault (I think))


I have a little more experience in the 5mans, and I have noticed a rather larger number of stun effects than TBC 5mans. So while many tanks no longer do the 5mans, for those who do a 3% heal or "shaking the stun off faster", I personally feel the shorter stun duration more viable.


edit: raid-wise I don't have the experience but it just feels a little more useful. If heals are THAT important to your raids, there's always dual-speccing to Holy rather than trying to heal as prot.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Jasari » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:32 am

Ah, that explains it then.

Typically builds posted on this site are for raid tanking. I'd never spec specifically for 5mans just because they're trivial once you out gear them and it's easy to out gear them within a day or two of hitting 80 with some craftable stuff and a badge item or two.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby majiben » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:35 am

You can avoid the Pound and thus the stun.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Ata » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:38 am

I'm also not in the PTR poking around Ulduar, but I rather believe in being the best MT possible. even when I was in a guild and assigned as an OT, i never settled for anything less than being fully capable of picking a boss up should the MT eat too much damage and die.

I'll likely dual-spec holy for when I'm healing, in which case Divinity might be more appealing to me, but on the off-chance of a stun from a raid boss I'd really prefer to shake it off quicker, than praying my healers keep me up during a raid boss stun. I believe I recall that Divinity increased healing done TO us by 2% but our out-going heals by 1% at one time, which might have been more appealing for 10% more incoming heals over 5%.

so with the current numbers, I really feel the possible benefit of 3% increased heals in/out is lower than 30% reduced stun duration.


edit: and while yes it is possible to avoid Anub's pound, if you can show me more than one fight where you are able to avoid 100% of his Pound's I'll eat my computer.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Jasari » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:43 am

There are no raid bosses that stun. Stoicism is useless for MTing.

And I never get hit by Anub'arak's stuns, they're pretty easy to avoid after the first couple runs.

[edit]
I might take that back, is Maexxna's web wrap affected by stoicism?
[edit2]
Ok, good I figured it didn't count as a "stun" but I didn't want to offer to give away any puppies until I knew for sure ;)
Last edited by Jasari on Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby majiben » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:46 am

I've avoided all his stuns every time but the first time I ran the instance.

Also raid bosses rarely "stun." They most often incapacitate through other means. You show me a wrath raid boss who has an unavoidable stun that can be shortened with Stoicism and I'll give you a puppy.

EDIT: maexxna's wrap is not a stun.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Ata » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:51 am

I'll just refer back to what got us started to, I was basing my "drop Divinity for Stoicism" on the possible "imp LoH MT" spec.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733


When Unyielding faith is spec'd, why not pick up stoicism over divinity? There's always Healing Light if you need more heals, 12% bigger heals over 3%, which is more important if healing from a tankadin is needed?
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Araceli » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:54 am

http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent=sZV0tAMuMusIufdeb0hbc

I'm leaning more towards this build, which I believe quite a few posted on.

I disagree with doing 2/2 DG only because even if it is situational and used for OT, the damage taken is already high enough, why increase it more? If anything that means that one healer or two healers of a raid are focusing on you rather than the MT.

Where I do think Divinity is a nice talent, I agree that it's terrible in that it is -passive- and in comparison to Imp. Devotion Aura, not entirely needed when there are other talents with much more use.

Reducing the CD of HoJ, imo, is very beneficial because it is one of two interrupt abilities, albeit some bosses are completely immune to interrupts, it definitely helps in more situations then not.

Some argue that 1/2 Spiritual Attunement is too low (+5% mana gained from heals), but to quote a lot of the experienced tanks, pull more mobs and use Divine Plea.

Stoicism is good, but not needed as maybe less than a handful of bosses have the chance to stun you. As said before, there are other talents in which we can invest in.

I would never invest points into Reckoning only because where the chance to get more hits in is great, it also has the increased chance of backfiring on you and getting parried.

2/2 Imp. Judgments is of personal taste. I don't use Cons a lot, and with the current +block value libram, more judgments means more procs means bigger shield slams. Does it mess up the common rotation? Just a bit, but that just means you're using a new rotation.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Jasari » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:56 am

Ata wrote:I'll just refer back to what got us started to, I was basing my "drop Divinity for Stoicism" on the possible "imp LoH MT" spec.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733


When Unyielding faith is spec'd, why not pick up stoicism over divinity? There's always Healing Light if you need more heals, 12% bigger heals over 3%, which is more important if healing from a tankadin is needed?


The point is that Stoicism does nothing at all when MTing any WotLK raid boss. Divinity (while I personally won't spec for it) offers +3% healing received which is better than NOT getting +3% healing received and certainly better than something that does absolutely nothing when tanking raid bosses. No one is speccing Divinity to make their own heals better, they're speccing it to make the heals that land on them better.

If you want to spec stoicism go ahead, but do it because it has some mild usefulness in heroics and on trash not because it's a good MT ability - you simply can't argue that any built that includes stoicism is the "best MT build".
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Jasari » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:57 am

Araceli wrote:2/2 Imp. Judgments is of personal taste. I don't use Cons a lot, and with the current +block value libram, more judgments means more procs means bigger shield slams. Does it mess up the common rotation? Just a bit, but that just means you're using a new worse rotation.

Fixed that for you, seems you forgot to add an addition adjective that should be used for any rotation other than 9696.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby lusisia » Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:17 am

Ata wrote:I'm also not in the PTR poking around Ulduar, but I rather believe in being the best MT possible. even when I was in a guild and assigned as an OT, i never settled for anything less than being fully capable of picking a boss up should the MT eat too much damage and die.

I'll likely dual-spec holy for when I'm healing, in which case Divinity might be more appealing to me, but on the off-chance of a stun from a raid boss I'd really prefer to shake it off quicker, than praying my healers keep me up during a raid boss stun. I believe I recall that Divinity increased healing done TO us by 2% but our out-going heals by 1% at one time, which might have been more appealing for 10% more incoming heals over 5%.

so with the current numbers, I really feel the possible benefit of 3% increased heals in/out is lower than 30% reduced stun duration.


edit: and while yes it is possible to avoid Anub's pound, if you can show me more than one fight where you are able to avoid 100% of his Pound's I'll eat my computer.


The problem boils down to math. Let's assume a 3 second stun on the MT in a hypothetical fight. That's .9 seconds you shaved off. If you can't survive a stun for .9 seconds and your healers don't already have a healing incoming, you don't have the gear for the fight.

Stun reduction talents/gems are for PvP. Nothing more.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Holyday » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:02 am

Just say you want Stoicism to PVP better and call it a day.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Flex » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:46 am

Majiben wrote:EDIT: maexxna's wrap is not a stun.


It is a stun that is coded to not be affected by anti-stun things or to be able to be broken.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Khayne » Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:59 pm

Considering this 0/53/18 spec myself.

I run in very paladin heavy raids ( i'm talking 4-5 paladins in 25 mens most of time). Sacred Shield duration increase isn't important to me and 20% on DS that i allready see as very situational and rarely used button, doesn't tempt at me enough so DG is off the window.

Only reason i even got DS is that the other option would be 1/5 reckoning which i see as pretty insignificant so i'll take that situational nice-to-have.

I also see some value in reduced interrupt cd on HoJ, not to mention there's still stunnable adds like enraged elementals in sarth.
Very minor, true. But so are all other options too.
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