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3.1 build 9733

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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Petrus » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:37 am

I'm thinking of

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

But I'm not sure where I want the last two points in prot. I like DS, it's handy. But is DG really worth it? A small increase on DS and duration on sacred shield which I don't use much anyway means little to me at the moment. Imp HoJ seems more utility-based and I think more useful to me. If I find myself needing SS a lot, however, I could easily respec into DG. Guardian's Favor also seems handy for a shorter-CD hand of protection but then again if people are doing their jobs, I won't need that shorter CD.

So it's down to 2/2 DG, Imp HoJ, or Guardian's Favor (leaning towards one of the first two, probably HoJ because I don't see myself using DS enough or SS enough to warrant the 2 points in DG).
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:38 am

Yeah, I think if you aren't interested in Crusade, you'd be fine with this variation, http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733 giving you actually more threat (sotp > conviction in this case), with a couple more tools that could be useful in a few situations. It's a pretty solid approach for the next level of progression to be more inclined to talent for survivability than threat, but both of the variations are quite good.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:39 am

Culwich wrote:Based in what i usually see in my Raids, my Build is going to be little different from the ones i´m seeing around.

Mine will be 0/56/15 - http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

Well, let me explain why i will chose this one:

In my Raids, there is always a Ret Paladin, that´s why i did not put any points in HoC. It´´s a waste.

Spend 3 points on DS and DG is also a waste, since 1 Holy Paladin from my guild will get this new talent and will benefit more from the Sacred Shield, because of his spell power.

I´m not going beyond Conviction, since my role is not do DPS (and go beyond this will just slightly improve DPS) and also Tankadins TPS is already good enough. So, i´m seeing it as non essential.

That´s why i also put 5 points on Divinity. To Receive 10% more heal from my Pally and 5% more heal from the others healers.

I think in my situation, the one i will use is the best. But i agree that it may change depending of the Raid Setup.


If you're not getting Crusade or PoJ, putting more than 6 points in Ret is very questionable (all the more so if you don't get HotC
either). At that point, I'd go for an Imp LoH spec, which has basically the same amount of threat (Conviction slightly edges out in 3.1, but not by much), and beefs up one of your "Oh Shit" buttons a great deal. Imp LoH isn't my favorite option, but if you're not going to get any of the good stuff that comes from investing further in Ret, you may as well cut your losses at 6 points.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:42 am

Dorvan wrote:
Culwich wrote:Based in what i usually see in my Raids, my Build is going to be little different from the ones i´m seeing around.

Mine will be 0/56/15 - http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

Well, let me explain why i will chose this one:

In my Raids, there is always a Ret Paladin, that´s why i did not put any points in HoC. It´´s a waste.

Spend 3 points on DS and DG is also a waste, since 1 Holy Paladin from my guild will get this new talent and will benefit more from the Sacred Shield, because of his spell power.

I´m not going beyond Conviction, since my role is not do DPS (and go beyond this will just slightly improve DPS) and also Tankadins TPS is already good enough. So, i´m seeing it as non essential. Possibly DS/DG instead of Divinity.

That´s why i also put 5 points on Divinity. To Receive 10% more heal from my Pally and 5% more heal from the others healers.

I think in my situation, the one i will use is the best. But i agree that it may change depending of the Raid Setup.


If you're not getting Crusade or PoJ, putting more than 6 points in Ret is very questionable (all the more so if you don't get HotC
either). At that point, I'd go for an Imp LoH spec, which has basically the same amount of threat (Conviction slightly edges out in 3.1, but not by much), and beefs up one of your "Oh Shit" buttons a great deal. Imp LoH isn't my favorite option, but if you're not going to get any of the good stuff that comes from investing further in Ret, you may as well cut your losses at 6 points.

Agreed, an Imp LoH build something like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733 is one of my top candidates. With possibly DS/DG instead of divinity.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby steadypal » Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:44 am

Culwich wrote:Based in what i usually see in my Raids, my Build is going to be little different from the ones i´m seeing around.

Mine will be 0/56/15 - http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

Well, let me explain why i will chose this one:

In my Raids, there is always a Ret Paladin, that´s why i did not put any points in HoC. It´´s a waste.

Spend 3 points on DS and DG is also a waste, since 1 Holy Paladin from my guild will get this new talent and will benefit more from the Sacred Shield, because of his spell power.

I´m not going beyond Conviction, since my role is not do DPS (and go beyond this will just slightly improve DPS) and also Tankadins TPS is already good enough. So, i´m seeing it as non essential.

That´s why i also put 5 points on Divinity. To Receive 10% more heal from my Pally and 5% more heal from the others healers.

I think in my situation, the one i will use is the best. But i agree that it may change depending of the Raid Setup.



well, if your not going for crusade wouldnt it be best to just get 5/5 SOTP, 6 points in ret, and use those 4 leftover points for more survival in prot tree for you?
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Culwich » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:51 pm

Jasari wrote:I feel like it's worth mentioning that an increase in raid DPS is an increase in raid DPS regardless of who it's coming from. Just because your "primary" roll is tanking, doesn't mean that adding addition DPS is worthless.

You're basically sacrificing 1-2% damage dealt in favor of +1% healing received when taking Divinity over Crusade. If it increased raid-wide healing received by 1% I'd consider it a decent trade off, but in this case I will definitely be speccing for Crusade.


Yeap. Raid DPS is important as well, but i see this 2% as non essential. Besides, in my case, as i said, i will be healed by a Holy Pally (with Divinite and 2 DG), which means 10% more Heal recieved, Nice Sacred Shield on myself, besides the 5% from a Disc Priest who also helps MT on Healing. Putting in a Balance, i think divinity, in this situation, is much better than go beyond Conviction to use SoB.

And again, HotC is worthless, since i´ve never gone to a Raid without a Pally Ret, that, for obvious reasons, has 3 points in HotC.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:57 pm

Culwich wrote:
Jasari wrote:I feel like it's worth mentioning that an increase in raid DPS is an increase in raid DPS regardless of who it's coming from. Just because your "primary" roll is tanking, doesn't mean that adding addition DPS is worthless.

You're basically sacrificing 1-2% damage dealt in favor of +1% healing received when taking Divinity over Crusade. If it increased raid-wide healing received by 1% I'd consider it a decent trade off, but in this case I will definitely be speccing for Crusade.


Yeap. Raid DPS is important as well, but i see this 2% as non essential. Besides, in my case, as i said, i will be healed by a Holy Pally (with Divinite and 2 DG), which means 10% more Heal recieved, Nice Sacred Shield on myself, besides the 5% from a Disc Priest who also helps MT on Healing. Putting in a Balance, i think divinity, in this situation, is much better than go beyond Conviction to use SoB.

And again, HotC is worthless, since i´ve never gone to a Raid without a Pally Ret, that, for obvious reasons, has 3 points in HotC.

I said this already, but I'll repeat it. It's not 10% more healing received. It's still just 5%. If the pally heals a warrior for 100, that same heal would heal you for 105, that's 5%. You can't add your Divinity to his, anymore than you could add your Divinity to his Healing Light talent and claim that you are getting 17% more healing from it.

As others have said, if DPS/TPS isn't what you are after then don't go above 6 points in ret. You can get Imp LoH, DS/DG, and with SotP will still be doing almost identical damage and threat.

Also, folks don't go beyond Conviction to use SoB.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Culwich » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:00 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Culwich wrote:Based in what i usually see in my Raids, my Build is going to be little different from the ones i´m seeing around.

Mine will be 0/56/15 - http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

Well, let me explain why i will chose this one:

In my Raids, there is always a Ret Paladin, that´s why i did not put any points in HoC. It´´s a waste.

Spend 3 points on DS and DG is also a waste, since 1 Holy Paladin from my guild will get this new talent and will benefit more from the Sacred Shield, because of his spell power.

I´m not going beyond Conviction, since my role is not do DPS (and go beyond this will just slightly improve DPS) and also Tankadins TPS is already good enough. So, i´m seeing it as non essential.

That´s why i also put 5 points on Divinity. To Receive 10% more heal from my Pally and 5% more heal from the others healers.

I think in my situation, the one i will use is the best. But i agree that it may change depending of the Raid Setup.


If you're not getting Crusade or PoJ, putting more than 6 points in Ret is very questionable (all the more so if you don't get HotC
either). At that point, I'd go for an Imp LoH spec, which has basically the same amount of threat (Conviction slightly edges out in 3.1, but not by much), and beefs up one of your "Oh Shit" buttons a great deal. Imp LoH isn't my favorite option, but if you're not going to get any of the good stuff that comes from investing further in Ret, you may as well cut your losses at 6 points.


What you said must be considered, for sure.

But you might considered that HotC, i need to repeat this, is worthless. Never went to a Raid without a Pally Ret.

About the Conviction, since ShotR won´t generate a high amount of threat anymore and we are going to see a DPS increase, 5% of crit might help to follow this evoluation.

At last, no doubt i won´t have any problems with mana with 2 points in SA and 3 points in Benedction.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:03 pm

ShoR is essentially unchanged. The extra threat change was a tooltip fix, and the reduction from the shield of the templar was rolled into ShoR directly. Benediction is not necessary, even with just one point in SA with the Divine Plea change you'll have plenty of mana. If you go to Imp LoH you can even increase your intellect for more regen if you like.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Jasari » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:08 pm

Culwich wrote:What you said must be considered, for sure.

But you might considered that HotC, i need to repeat this, is worthless. Never went to a Raid without a Pally Ret.

About the Conviction, since ShotR won´t generate a high amount of threat anymore and we are going to see a DPS increase, 5% of crit might help to follow this evoluation.

At last, no doubt i won´t have any problems with mana with 2 points in SA and 3 points in Benedction.


Like Fridmarr said, the changes to ShoR scaling and others was just a change because the bonus damage from talents was moved to baseline. The total damage output remains exactly the same.

And your arguments about HotC being worthless just give all the more reason to not spec into ret at all if you're not going to get crusade. You get almost exactly the same amount of threat going into holy to pick up imp LoH
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Culwich » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:17 pm

Hummmm ... Nice Guys !!!

So, i don´t see other Build besides Fridmmarr´s. It´s the one that better balances survavibility and great possibility to be MT or OT (to pop up Divine Sacrifice when needed). If threat becomes an issue, i might consider not to have Divine Sacrifice and go a little bit further at Ret tree.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:25 pm

Culwich wrote:What you said must be considered, for sure.

But you might considered that HotC, i need to repeat this, is worthless. Never went to a Raid without a Pally Ret.


And your Ret Pally has never died either? My point however wasn't that you should take HotC, but that you shouldn't put more than 6 points in Ret unless you're putting in 18.

Culwich wrote:About the Conviction, since ShotR won´t generate a high amount of threat anymore and we are going to see a DPS increase, 5% of crit might help to follow this evoluation.


ShoR has no extra threat multiplier. I don't recall any changes so far that will result in a Prot DPS increase. At any rate....like I said SotP is very similar for threat and actually leads to talents that are useful instead of require 4 points of undesirable talents to reach it (as is the case with Conviction).

Culwich wrote:At last, no doubt i won´t have any problems with mana with 2 points in SA and 3 points in Benedction.


You also won't have any mana problems with 1 point in SA and 0 points in Benediction....it's been both theorycrafted and tested on the PTR realm.


In 3.1 Ret is a 6 or 18 point proposition.....intermediate values don't really make sense unless maybe you're focused on 10 mans (and thus want HotC).
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:29 pm

Culwich wrote:Hummmm ... Nice Guys !!!

So, i don´t see other Build besides Fridmmarr´s. It´s the one that better balances survavibility and great possibility to be MT or OT (to pop up Divine Sacrifice when needed). If threat becomes an issue, i might consider not to have Divine Sacrifice and go a little bit further at Ret tree.

Well I'll be honest, I'm only really interested in Crusade right now, because I would like to get PoJ. So if I'm going that far in ret, then going the rest of the way to Crusade makes sense. If you aren't interested in those, then I think either of these builds are both good options, and of course there are variances to them as well.

Imp LoH
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

Divinity/DS/DG
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733


Whem I'm doing builds I start with this Core Build and add to it,
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

The only exception is that I had to put 3 points somewhere in order to progress up the prot tree. I stuck them in Divnity, but they could just as easily be in DS/DG. Anyhow, with that core, you can handle anything, and have 12 points to play with.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Ata » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:19 am

imo the imp LoH tank build should drop divinity for stoicism.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... rsion=9733

3% more healing done out or in (6% if you heal yourself which generally isn't practical as a tank) isn't as worth as being able to shake off the seemingly numerous stun-type effects which cause us to take a serious beating.
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Re: 3.1 build 9733

Postby Dorvan » Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:25 am

Ata wrote:3% more healing done out or in (6% if you heal yourself which generally isn't practical as a tank) isn't as worth as being able to shake off the seemingly numerous stun-type effects which cause us to take a serious beating.


Seemingly numerous as in "doesn't appear on a single boss fight in WotLK"?
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