Touched by the Light - how important is it?

[Turumbar]

Been thinking about this lately with 3.1 closing in and what I'm going to do with my points.

How much extra threat does this provided for us, and is it something that could possibly be left out?

I have it in my current spec, but to be honest, at the level my guild is at (10 mans only), threat has not been an issue for me, and some of my DPS has picked up 25 man gear through PuG's/running with friends guilds and I have not.

For 10 mans, would something like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=00000000000000000000000000550050350310232133301232150230030200300000000000000&glyph=072418050406&version=9722 be viable?

[Grehn|Skipjack]

More important than Divinity.

[Jasari]

I'm pretty sure TbtL gives more DPS/TPS per point than crusade

[Grothnir]

Has anyone actually run the numbers on that? I'm still hoping to get 3/3 Crusade, and I'm trying to figure out where the point needs to come from in our incredibly lopsided tree.

[Jasari]

I can't imagine any way at least 650 spell power will be worth less than a 3% increase in DPS. If you're trying to find somewhere to take points out of, try Divinity.

[theckhd]

I calculated in the matlab thread that TbtL is roughly 31 DPS and 94 TPS. In various other threads, I've gotten similar numbers for Crusade - 31 DPS and 78 TPS.

So in that sense, the two are roughly the same, but you'll generally get more threat out of TbtL than Crusade.

[Grothnir]

I've been about half following that thread, and telling myself that when they finally put final talents in place I'll get caught up on all that phenomenal work [/sucking up].

In the short term, if you don't mind satisfying my immediate curiosity.... Does that assume a target that is or is not doubled for the purpose of Crusade? And do you have any thoughts or intuitions about how that will scale with gear? i.e. which one gives more threat as you gear up, generally speaking? Obviously, you can skew it towards TbtL by stacking the heck out of stamina, but I'd be more interested in the results using one of those generic, sensible gear sets.

[theckhd]

It assumes a regular 3% target for the purposes of Crusade. Against one of the types of targets that Crusade is doubly effective on, Crusade is the hands-down winner.

My guess is that TbtL will scale better with gear, but it'll be close. From the itemization analysis, we get about 11 DPS and 28 TPS from 10 STR, and 1 DPS and 2.5 TPS from 15 STA (through TbtL).

So let's say we have an upgrade that gives us 10 STR and 15 STA. We get 1 DPS and 2.5 TPS from the Stamina, while Crusade gives us 12*0.03=0.36 DPS and 30.5*0.03=0.915 TPS, which seems lackluster by comparison. However, Crusade benefits from more sources than just STR - it also gets benefits from weapon damage (through HotR) and Block Value (ShoR).

Whether that's enough to help it catch up to TbtL or not is uncertain, it will depend on the amount of BV and Weapon Damage, and more importantly on how our gear is itemized (heavy avoidance gear, with low STR and BV but high STA would favor TbtL, for example). The reason I guessed that TbtL would scale better is simply that we're guaranteed to get more STA on our gear, the rest of the stats really depend on how they intend to itemize us through T9.

[majiben]

Thecktd has run the numbers repeatedly. If you want 3/3 in crusade you drop a point out of SA. TbtL is signicant chunk of our threat and certainly outpaces crusade (it out pacess 3.0 1HS!).

[Dorvan]

Thecktd has run the numbers repeatedly. If you want 3/3 in crusade you drop a point out of SA. TbtL is signicant chunk of our threat and certainly outpaces crusade (it out pacess 3.0 1HS!).

Based on the math theck just posted here, we can pretty conclusively state that 1HWS far outpaces TbtL. Just multiply the benefit of Crusade by 3-4 (depending on which point it is) and that's the benefit of 1HWS. Clearly this far exceeds TbtL.

[majiben]

3.0 1HS not 3.1.

In 3.0 1HS is a 2% increase in threat per point. In 3.1 it gets significantly boosted to 3.33% per point. I used 3.0 1HS for comparission because 3.0 1HS = Crusade on special mobs. So if TbtL > 3.0 1HS and 3.0 1HS = Crusade on special mobs then TbtL>Crusade on special mobs. And that's not even considering that crusade is only half as effect on quite a few mobs we'll be facing in Uldar.

[Dorvan]

3.0 1HS not 3.1.

In 3.0 1HS is a 2% increase in threat per point. In 3.1 it gets significantly boosted to 3.33% per point. I used 3.0 1HS for comparission because 3.0 1HS = Crusade on special mobs. So if TbtL > 3.0 1HS and 3.0 1HS = Crusade on special mobs then TbtL>Crusade on special mobs. And that's not even considering that crusade is only half as effect on quite a few mobs we'll be facing in Uldar.

...but TbtL isn't better than Crusade against special mobs. The two are about equal on non-special mobs (slight edge to TbtL), and Crusade is clearly better against special mob. 1HWS is more threat per point in 3.0 than TbtL. That's exactly what theckhd just posted.

[majiben]

Must have been working off one of his old posts.

[Turumbar]

So, if I am understanding this correctly, it wouldn't kill you to not have TbtL, but there's no good reason not to take it.

[Grothnir]

So, if I am understanding this correctly, it wouldn't kill you to not have TbtL, but there's no good reason not to take it.

Aye. It appears to be a shockingly good threat talent (as I might have discovered had I even done napkin math). Therefore, giving it up to take some other, lesser threat talent would be an act of silliness.

I try not to be silly in my talent spec, at least (one needs at least one reserve of rationality).