Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby neokai » Fri May 08, 2009 2:38 pm

Some suggestions on the bosses to try it out on.

Ignis: Golem Tanking with this. Also useful for tanking the first 2 Rune Colossus you meet (Burn! + Earthquake)
Deconstructor: Late fight, esp if you are the OT holding 6 or more Pummellers (and doing hard mode, the bombs are killer in hard mode)
Auriaya: Initial pull. I know this sounds crazy, but use Salvation just before you do the pull. You should have a 6 sec taunt up anyway on the kitty you are tanking and the damage reduction does stack with bubble wall, DP and BoSanc.
Hodir: Frozen blows tanking, but threat management is an issue.
Mimiron: Plasma beams. Taking 1 external cd out of the equation can mean that you bring a player rather than a class.
Thorim: For when you want to show off how survivable you are when tanking Rune Colossus, Giant and Thorim, together. (I doubt you will want to do that tho lol).
Yogg Saron: Immortal Guardians. Also the Crusher Tentacles I think.
Judge a man by the trials of his shield, not the empty reaping of his sword.
My warcraftpets profile here

Image
neokai
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:56 am

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Olen » Fri May 08, 2009 10:44 pm

I don't know any ptanks that use this glyph and are unhappy with it. Only tanks that won't take it.
I'm not gonna pass up on a mini-shield wall personally.

Oage
Image
Olen
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 10:28 pm
Location: Kul Tiras, Alliance

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Venoseth » Sun May 10, 2009 12:32 pm

That sounds very reasonable of you Theck, let me know how it turns out. You can pretend it was some over-zealous DPS if you lose threat, really easy. =0P

So try it out a lot, just slip them some gold for repairs or something. XD
"Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work."

"Education is an ornament in prosperity and refuge in adversity."
Image
Venoseth
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:05 pm

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Palalaladin » Mon May 11, 2009 4:38 am

was scared to take it, was even more scared to use it and now I dont even bother looking at omen before using it. it is just DP with 20% to me. it never let me lose aggro and usually you dont have to spend as many CDs but mimi is great example where every CD helps. tantrum helps, all OTing helps a lot, all split bosses(council) -it helps a lot so ya, love it and will recommend it to any pala tank. cos what glyph is better really? you have divine plea, you have SoV and then you use what, something for threat? you dont need it, something for extra person to be hit with ShotR? when 3 and AS and cons and 2 taunts isnt enough really? so its no sacrifice or anything, its just nice for-special-occasions extra CD.
Palalaladin(VoS), US-Sargeras
Palalaladin
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:52 am

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby theckhd » Mon May 11, 2009 7:28 am

Venoseth wrote:That sounds very reasonable of you Theck, let me know how it turns out. You can pretend it was some over-zealous DPS if you lose threat, really easy. =0P

So try it out a lot, just slip them some gold for repairs or something. XD

Yeah, I'm already becoming a fan of it after just a few nights. I think it did help net us our first 10-man Thorim hard-mode kill, though it did cost us the other tank (as you said, not great for taunt fights, he pulled aggro near the end of the Salv buff because I let it ride out all the way).

You can also add Ignis add-tanking and Iron Council boss-tanking to the list - even main-tanking Steelbreaker you can use it since your threat lead is pretty huge.

I do need to be careful though, I have some DPS that can crank out very large amounts of burst threat early in a fight (a few very good mages and shamans in particular). They're used to being able to pop all their CDs and nuke the boss from the get-go, which is fine, but ends up preventing me from using HoSalv as a cooldown early on. This is part of the reason I expressed a lot of hesitation about using it as the first cooldown on Mimiron. I'd much rather Bubblewall the first, GS the second, and HoSalv the third (if we even get a third) right before the end of the phase, due to the stability argument I put forth earlier.

I think the hardest part of using it is simply remembering that I have it, since I'm not used to having that extra cooldown. I also need to find a more convenient keybind for it. Shift+5 isn't that bad, but it's not something I've trained my hands to do natively yet. Maybe Alt+A (doesn't impact movement buttons) or something else easier to reach.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8028
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby trellian » Tue May 12, 2009 2:47 am

I will still shove my DK tank in front of any boss that would 'require' the usage of that glyph.

General for example is a fight where you are just not doing your raid a favor if anyone but a DK is tanking him. For me it's best man for the job. Currently pally's are not best man on almost all of the Ulduar fights.
User avatar
trellian
 
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:02 am
Location: Silvermoon, EU

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby theckhd » Tue May 12, 2009 5:37 am

trellian wrote:Currently pally's are not best man on almost all of the Ulduar fights.

I don't know why you'd say this, since I haven't seen any evidence that this is in general true. In fact, I'd say that for most fights in Ulduar, which tank you pick is almost completely irrelevant.

I also don't see why General would necessarily be a DK fight, unless you're cheesing it by not kiting him. Even in our 25-mans, our DK kites him just because it's safer, he can save those cooldowns for oh-shit moments. And if you're kiting, we're really at no disadvantage there; my threat generation is better than the DK's, and mana is not really an issue on the 25-man version.

Back to the topic at hand: I may have changed my mind about Mimiron. HoSalv on the 2nd plasma blast was more fatal than I thought in 10-man (it cost me a warlock). I didn't get a chance to try it on the first one though, since it was getting late and we were only getting 2 plasmas, I just bubblewalled the first and GS'ed the 2nd. Though I think my priest missed his GS anyway and we just healed through it with no trouble.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8028
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Olen » Tue May 12, 2009 6:11 am

For Mimiron, Salv's better for the first one.
We use two tanks or Salv/DivProt/GS, in that order.

O
Image
Olen
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 10:28 pm
Location: Kul Tiras, Alliance

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby trellian » Tue May 12, 2009 6:28 am

theckhd wrote:
trellian wrote:Currently pally's are not best man on almost all of the Ulduar fights.

I don't know why you'd say this, since I haven't seen any evidence that this is in general true. In fact, I'd say that for most fights in Ulduar, which tank you pick is almost completely irrelevant.


Ulduar is extremely leaning towards EH tanks. Something pally's just are not. I put my DK up front on General because he has cooldowns. He can use them while not kiting to save our healers more mana. I don't see why I would put myself up there as a mana sponge when a DK can negate more damage and kite him just as good as I could. It's the tanks' job to make the healers' job as easy as possible. DK's do that to more extend then pally's.

Mind you, I'm not saying pally's suck or are not viable, because we can do fine. I'm just saying we are not the best choice.
It's the same reason I have our druid tank Hodir. And why I tank the robot trash on XT in BV gear.
User avatar
trellian
 
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:02 am
Location: Silvermoon, EU

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Olen » Tue May 12, 2009 9:07 am

"It's the tanks' job to make the healers' job as easy as possible."

20% reduced incoming damage FTW
Yeah it's situational. Yeah you don't need your hammer hitting a fourth target.
Image
Olen
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 10:28 pm
Location: Kul Tiras, Alliance

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Ascendant » Tue May 12, 2009 10:21 pm

fights you can safely use it on:
    Ignis
    deconstructor
    Iron council
    Auriaya
    Mimiron
    Freya
    Yogg
    Kologarn (tank switches are far enough apart)

fights you can't safely use it (due to tank switches or dps boosts):
    razorscale
    thorim
    hodir (good dps will threat cap)
    vezax (good dps will threat cap)

This look right?
Ascendant
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:27 am

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby theckhd » Wed May 13, 2009 1:31 pm

Good DPS can get close to threat-capping you for short bursty sections of many fights, which is one of the drawbacks I've found with this glyph. I'm going to mess around with it some on Mimiron tonight, but I can confidently say that it was a problem using it on the second Plasma Blast, despite my (apparently incorrect) intuition earlier in this thread.

Any fight with sustained DPS on a boss where you can build up a good threat lead should be OK, as long as it doesn't have damage-boosting gimmicks. This would cover Iron Council an Ignis.

In addition, any fight where the DPS has to switch targets and multitask, but you do not, should be safe. This covers Deconstructor, Kologarn, Auriaya, Freya, and Yogg.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8028
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Scottzirra » Thu May 14, 2009 2:39 pm

theckhd wrote:Good DPS can get close to threat-capping you for short bursty sections of many fights, which is one of the drawbacks I've found with this glyph. I'm going to mess around with it some on Mimiron tonight, but I can confidently say that it was a problem using it on the second Plasma Blast, despite my (apparently incorrect) intuition earlier in this thread.

Any fight with sustained DPS on a boss where you can build up a good threat lead should be OK, as long as it doesn't have damage-boosting gimmicks. This would cover Iron Council an Ignis.

In addition, any fight where the DPS has to switch targets and multitask, but you do not, should be safe. This covers Deconstructor, Kologarn, Auriaya, Freya, and Yogg.



I personally did not take this glyph, but not because I am worried about threat. The healers in my guild are, for the most part, exceptional, and I really have not felt the need for the mini shield wall. I use RD, SoV, DP majors, and they serve me well. As a matter of personal preference I would rather have RD be almost 100% chance to hit, as I feel this would be used more in "clutch" situations, in which another tank dies, or like on razorscale when you need precision taunting.

As far as DK vs Pally, DK's are just plain better suited to some of the ulduar fights. We use our DK tank whenever the boss uses an ability that can be absorbed (in part at least) by AMS. Fusion punch, frozen blows, etc. On Hodir I tank during normal hits, and the DK taunts during frozen blows. I am all for letting mechanics dictate which of us tank (we have 1 drood, 1 DK, 1 war, and me).

On another note, I know using HoSalv late in the fight is a larger threat loss, but what kind of dps are your raiders doing? we have a few people 5k+ and a lock that approaches 6k, and I have enough of a TPS lead that I could hit Salv if I had the glyph, and not feel like i was endangering them.
Scottzirra
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:59 am

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby Venoseth » Sun May 17, 2009 9:05 pm

Scottzirra wrote:
theckhd wrote:Good DPS can get close to threat-capping you for short bursty sections of many fights, which is one of the drawbacks I've found with this glyph. I'm going to mess around with it some on Mimiron tonight, but I can confidently say that it was a problem using it on the second Plasma Blast, despite my (apparently incorrect) intuition earlier in this thread.

Any fight with sustained DPS on a boss where you can build up a good threat lead should be OK, as long as it doesn't have damage-boosting gimmicks. This would cover Iron Council an Ignis.

In addition, any fight where the DPS has to switch targets and multitask, but you do not, should be safe. This covers Deconstructor, Kologarn, Auriaya, Freya, and Yogg.



I personally did not take this glyph, but not because I am worried about threat. The healers in my guild are, for the most part, exceptional, and I really have not felt the need for the mini shield wall. I use RD, SoV, DP majors, and they serve me well. As a matter of personal preference I would rather have RD be almost 100% chance to hit, as I feel this would be used more in "clutch" situations, in which another tank dies, or like on razorscale when you need precision taunting.

As far as DK vs Pally, DK's are just plain better suited to some of the ulduar fights. We use our DK tank whenever the boss uses an ability that can be absorbed (in part at least) by AMS. Fusion punch, frozen blows, etc. On Hodir I tank during normal hits, and the DK taunts during frozen blows. I am all for letting mechanics dictate which of us tank (we have 1 drood, 1 DK, 1 war, and me).

On another note, I know using HoSalv late in the fight is a larger threat loss, but what kind of dps are your raiders doing? we have a few people 5k+ and a lock that approaches 6k, and I have enough of a TPS lead that I could hit Salv if I had the glyph, and not feel like i was endangering them.


All I'll say is that just because you haven't felt like it's "required" doesn't mean you shouldn't get the most out of something that can be highly useful(in my opinion).

That's just the way I think about tanking. Do your best w/ what you have.

It seems most people who try it seem to appreciate it, and I've yet to hear a very good reason not to use it. It's a CD, but it has limitations, they're far less severe than LoH, at least. Here's to hoping our new CD (this topic talks about it) has fewer penalties.

TL;DR - I'm happy w/ a CD I get from a glyph that has a limitation associated with our highest relative ability (threat generation, IMO) and don't see a reason not to have it for serious, progression tanking.
Last edited by Venoseth on Mon May 18, 2009 9:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Pleasure in the job puts perfection in the work."

"Education is an ornament in prosperity and refuge in adversity."
Image
Venoseth
 
Posts: 240
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:05 pm

Re: Glyph of Hand of Salvation.

Postby trellian » Mon May 18, 2009 4:00 am

Scottzirra wrote:On another note, I know using HoSalv late in the fight is a larger threat loss, but what kind of dps are your raiders doing? we have a few people 5k+ and a lock that approaches 6k, and I have enough of a TPS lead that I could hit Salv if I had the glyph, and not feel like i was endangering them.


On General my ranged DPS-ers are hitting 12k+ DPS... Granted, on average about 6k dps in an 8 min fight, but it's a bursty fight, that are just the mechanics.
100% dmg and 100% haste buff from the black goo ups their threat pretty fast.
On any such fight I would be the go-to tank as my threat is superior to any of the other tanks we have. But due to another part of the fight mechanic (namely DK cooldowns completely trivialising that part) I have to place my DK in front of the boss.
User avatar
trellian
 
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:02 am
Location: Silvermoon, EU

PreviousNext

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest