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5/5 Divinity

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Postby Vioarr » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:31 am

Wakeman wrote:When dual specs is out, you guys better have Holy as the second spec to get some insight of what exactly it is as a healer. Some of your assumption about healers is VERY wrong.

I am Holy currently and one of the core healers of our raid. Unless you are talking about content that everyone is vastly overgeared, 5% (or 10% if both the healadins and the pally tank specced it) more healing DOES matter. This is actually more obvious for fights that everyone takes damage. More healing allows the tank's healers to spend less time healing the tank, so that they can help raid healing more. Not uncommonly I would think if only I could spare one heal to the tank, I could have saved that dps. Because of this, more healing to the tank DOES help the whole raid in those situations. For 5-man, this is even more important as you only have one healer. The healer's "less time on tank = more time on group" logic is even more obvious.

Of course, again I am talking about instance/raid content that is not overgeared yet. For trivial fights like Noth that even I would help dps in healing spec and healing gear, 5-10% more healing is definitely not very useful.

In summary:
- Overgeared: Divinity not very useful
- Progression: Divinity definitely helps


Sounds like your raid healers need to step up their game a bit if the MT healer needs to be concerned about DPS. Apart from a couple fights in the game currently, your MT is not in immediate danger at the same time as a dps, that you absolutely cannot step away from them for a large heal.

If a heal goes off for 10,000, Divinity is going to hit the person you're healing (or yourself if you have Divinity) for 500 extra HP. Sure, if you have two or three people healing you thats going to be for 1.5k (provided all the heals are for 10,000). That's essentially the same amount as a PW:S, a tick of renew, a little weaker than a PoM tick, etc. The point is that if 1.5k health is the difference between life and death you probably want to re-evaluate your strategy.
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Postby Conaan! » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:51 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Wakeman wrote:When dual specs is out, you guys better have Holy as the second spec to get some insight of what exactly it is as a healer. Some of your assumption about healers is VERY wrong.



played a healer, both as shaman and paladin, yes i know what a healer is, no 5% is not a noticeable difference, especially since EVERYTHING is overheal


Come on.. not ALL the heal can be overheal.. just not possible.



its an exageration yes, but its damned near true, tank healing is tons of overheal
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Postby theothersteve7 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:53 am

Well, most MT healers I've known will drop an AOE heal if the situation calls for it. For example, what if they (the MT healer) need healing ASAP?

I like being easy to heal, it's a big part of being a Paladin. Being able to stay up for a while from just AOE heals is helpful to everyone.

I prefer 3/3 Crusade, though. 1% just isn't enough.
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Postby Chunes » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:59 am

Am I complete retarded? I have no idea what this divinity is your are all talkin about.

did I miss something?!

It's not on any of the talent calculator even linked.

I'm really confused.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:15 am

Chunes wrote:Am I complete retarded? I have no idea what this divinity is your are all talkin about.

did I miss something?!

It's not on any of the talent calculator even linked.

I'm really confused.


It's in the patch notes but not the PTR yet. Essentially it replaces kings on the talent tree now that kings is baseline. It increases healing done to you and by you by 1% per point, up to 5 points.
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Postby Chunes » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:37 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Chunes wrote:Am I complete retarded? I have no idea what this divinity is your are all talkin about.

did I miss something?!

It's not on any of the talent calculator even linked.

I'm really confused.


It's in the patch notes but not the PTR yet. Essentially it replaces kings on the talent tree now that kings is baseline. It increases healing done to you and by you by 1% per point, up to 5 points.


Gotcha, thanks frid!
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Postby GothicPL » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:01 pm

Wakeman wrote:This is actually more obvious for fights that everyone takes damage. More healing allows the tank's healers to spend less time healing the tank, so that they can help raid healing more. Not uncommonly I would think if only I could spare one heal to the tank, I could have saved that dps. Because of this, more healing to the tank DOES help the whole raid in those situations. For 5-man, this is even more important as you only have one healer. The healer's "less time on tank = more time on group" logic is even more obvious.


Could you please express your disagreement in a more polite way? Many folks contributing to this thread have played holy, so they know what they're talking about.

Anyway, could you provide a more specific example of what you are talking about?

When the fight calls for occasionally healing DPS (Kel'Thuzad Frost Blast and Instructor Jagged Knife are good examples of having to switch from MT to the blast/knife target), you seem to imply that the right strategy is increase your HPS on tank so that you have some spare GCDs for DPS. First, these examples are best served by maintaining Beacon of Light on the tank, in which case all heals done to DPS will be mirrored to the tank. Second, even without a Beacon, the best way to top the tank off is by throwing big heals such as Holy Light on him and not by increasing your effective spell power so that Flash of Light will occasionally top the tank off.

Benefits of main tank taking this talent are pretty insignificant in this context.
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Postby majiben » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:14 pm

Does divinity get applied a second time to your beacon target? IE you do 100 effective healing to a dps, would the tank take a 100 or a 105 heal?

Not going to significantly change it's usefulness but intersting to know.
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Postby GothicPL » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:20 pm

Majiben wrote:Does divinity get applied a second time to your beacon target? IE you do 100 effective healing to a dps, would the tank take a 100 or a 105 heal?


I haven't tested it (not on PTR), but it should be 105 heal. Beacon counts just as another healing spell, and Divinity is supposed to apply to all incoming heals.

Having seen this thread and EJ thread on its usefulness (or lack of) to healadins, I wouldn't be surprised if this talent gets buffed eventually to produce more per point benefit.
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Postby Zironic » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:24 pm

Since we're the TANK and not the dps I think we should always favor talents that might make us live longer over talents that simply increse our dps/threat aslong as we don't have any threat issues (we don't have threat issues).

Thus I think we should take Divinity over any kind of dps talent, not because it's great but because it's something. It's usefulness will be the most for fights such as Maexxna and that silencing boss in MH (azgalor?) where you pray that the HoT's are enough to keep you alive.
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Postby majiben » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:33 pm

On those fights you don't die because the HoTs weren't big enough you die because someone didn't cleanse, you ran out of CDs, someone didn't throw their HoTs on. As previvous said in this thread it doesn't do anything to address the usual cause of tank death, burst. We're not dying to a slow hemoragging, divinity would be good for that.
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Postby Zironic » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:36 pm

Majiben wrote:On those fights you don't die because the HoTs weren't big enough you die because someone didn't cleanse, you ran out of CDs, someone didn't throw their HoTs on. As previvous said in this thread it doesn't do anything to address the usual cause of tank death, burst. We're not dying to a slow hemoragging, divinity would be good for that.


Very rarely does a tank ever die 100% to 0% with 0 healing, I'm not sure if 5% more healing would save you but it might. I just know that reckoning and SotP wont.
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Postby majiben » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:39 pm

I would postulate it's even rarer for a tank to die to less than 5% of their max health done in overkill.

And who's getting SotP in 3.1?

Also reckoning might actually save you with the new enchant.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:40 pm

Zironic wrote:I just know that reckoning and SotP wont.


Unless of course, you get through that really dangerous phase just a might bit sooner and avoid one more burst event in the first place.

Shortening boss kills does increase your success chance. The effect is tiny, but so is that of Divinity (assuming you're not threat-capping DPS, if you are threat capping DPS the effect isn't trivial at all).
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Postby Zironic » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:48 pm

Dorvan wrote:Unless of course, you get through that really dangerous phase just a might bit sooner and avoid one more burst event in the first place.

Shortening boss kills does increase your success chance. The effect is tiny, but so is that of Divinity (assuming you're not threat-capping DPS, if you are threat capping DPS the effect isn't trivial at all).


I agree that both effects are tiny, I'm just arguing that a tiny bit more survivability is better then a tiny bit dps since we're after all tanks.

With dual specs I could imagine a fair few people speccing divinity in their "survive at all costs" spec and reckoning and stuff in their "let's see how much dps I can do with a shield" spec.
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