5/5 Divinity

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Postby Conaan! » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:14 pm

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
Ossuary wrote:Take for example, Patchwerk(DPS test on PTR)
I Main Tanked Patchwerk.

Over the course of the fight i received a total of:
Pally#1 (Main Healer) HLr13:486,809 eff Heal
% of Overheal: 76%
Kill Time: 4:17



Ok, First of all this is the worst fight for healing. Now why? You get the bacon of light, the HolyPaladins spam heal to full the OTs. Say you loose 5k HP, OT gets healed to full, 50% Overheal. You don't loose HP, 100% Overheal.

Also do not make the mistake to look at 3.0.9 encounters with this talent. Right NOW it is not so useful. True. Nobody will challenge that.

Say that new fight in Ulduar, 25k Auto-Hits over a period of 6-10 Minutes. Also manareg for healers WILL get changed!

-> That is the content where +5% can make a difference over a long and very intensive healing periode.

Not 3.0.9 Patchwerk.

more healing =/= less heals, the 5% is such a miniscule difference most healers will not notice it, and will continue to heal as normal, to think it will reduce time healing would be to completely over-value 5%

think of it as gaining 2 stamina in a new patch, its something, but it isnt game breaking, nor is it helping against any new content (unless that 2 stamina will push you over the threshold to survive that one hit without a cd)
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Postby GothicPL » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:30 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Sarkan-ZdC wrote:Say that new fight in Ulduar, 25k Auto-Hits over a period of 6-10 Minutes. Also manareg for healers WILL get changed!

-> That is the content where +5% can make a difference over a long and very intensive healing periode.


No. Again, 5% healing will not make any difference in the cast selection of your healers, because you can't downrank to take advantage of the extra +heal. You've yet to explain how this would make any difference in healer mana, I think it's time you elaborated on that point.


As a healer, there is only a couple of fights where this talent can possibly make a difference between tank life and death. Gruul and Maexxna where healers get incapacitated or silenced, and tank survival depends in part on the strength of HOTs that are ticking on him. Essentially, this talent would turn a 4000 HOT tick into a 4200 tick.

For healer classes that currently overheal, I agree, this talent wouldn't make a noticeable difference, that's why I won't be taking it on my healadin - I'd rather have 3% crit for improved efficiency and PoJ for better mobility.

But if I was a resto druid, I would probably appreciate the tank investing in this talent.

Now, as far as alternatives are concerned - keep in mind that a more easily healable tank can remove the need for an extra healer, which may in turn result in being able to bring an extra "proper" DPS.
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Postby majiben » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:34 pm

Generally though you would be able to swap out 21 healers for 20 which is not reasonable. The boost is not large enough to warrant fewer healers; this sort of behavior is generally seen on farm content anyways.

Also on Maex you usually die to lack of hots, lack of CD lack of poison cleansing but not due to the size of the HoTs.
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Postby Kriskringle » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:01 pm

One more thing to think about is Divine Aegis - according to what I've read at DiscPriest.com, overheal counts towards DA procs, so 5% increased healing translates directly to 5% larger DA bubbles.

Dorvan, your earlier point about downranking is right on, but it hasn't vanished completely if you look at switching from HL to FoL as effectually similar. It's very likely, given blue comments, that HL spamming won't be feasible in the near future. If 5% increased heals and a few more +SP gems/drops mean that my Holy paladin friend can mix in an extra FoL in between HL casts, and that gives him a nice longevity boost on bosses, then I'm going to give it a long look when I think about my spec.

I don't know if I'll be convinced that this talent is so bad until I talk to my healers and look at WWS parses after a few times in the new content. Since I'm currently way ahead of my Warrior guildmate's threat generation, and I run almost exclusively 10-man content, I will likely start 3.1 with 5/5 and look for reasons to spec out of it.
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Postby Flex » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:18 pm

Kriskringle wrote:One more thing to think about is Divine Aegis - according to what I've read at DiscPriest.com, overheal counts towards DA procs, so 5% increased healing translates directly to 5% larger DA bubbles.


But at the same time divine Aegis can't be greater than 10,000 damage absorbed. I don't know if that is reachable currently but with stacking in 3.1 it may be.
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Postby Kriskringle » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:34 pm

Flex wrote:But at the same time divine Aegis can't be greater than 10,000 damage absorbed. I don't know if that is reachable currently but with stacking in 3.1 it may be.


DA creates a shield that absorbs 30% of the healed (effective+overheal) amount on a crit. To get a 10,000 damage shield, a Disc priest will need to crit for a total of 33,334 healing between damaging attacks (of course, if a boss does less than 10k damage per hit, some of the shield could carry over between hits). While this may happen occasionally (avoidance streaks, crit streaks), I'd guess that it's not going to be a terribly restrictive ceiling for many fights. I'm sure that someone with an 80 Disc priest would know better than me, though.
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Postby Flex » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:23 pm

Right. I'd still chalk up a 5% large Divine Aegis as bordering on inconsequential.

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Priest crits for 15750 and gives a shield for 4725
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:35 pm

Kriskringle wrote:Dorvan, your earlier point about downranking is right on, but it hasn't vanished completely if you look at switching from HL to FoL as effectually similar. It's very likely, given blue comments, that HL spamming won't be feasible in the near future. If 5% increased heals and a few more +SP gems/drops mean that my Holy paladin friend can mix in an extra FoL in between HL casts, and that gives him a nice longevity boost on bosses, then I'm going to give it a long look when I think about my spec.


Yeah, there's certainly some theoretical gain the can be achieved by altering your FoL/HL mix, but I question how much can actually be achieved in practice: certainly the benefit is going to be much less than 5%. Healers inherently need to be risk-averse in approaching such a balance: the consequence of switching to higher efficiency, lower hps spells too often is a little more mana consumption, the consequence of switching too aggressively is an imminently dead tank. Also, damage intake isn't entirely predictable, making FoL use a risky proposition for tank healing: a safer approach to saving mana would be cancel-casting HL.

In general, even the best healer isn't going to be able to get 5% efficiency out of 5% +heal, and what gain is possible to achieve won't be reached by most players, as reaching this potential is highly dependent on perfect play (unlike say, a +dam benefit for DPS where you get the benefit just by continuing to use the same rotation you used before).
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Postby GothicPL » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:28 pm

Switching from HL to FoL is not a good example because of a huge discrepancy in power between the two spells. As things stand today, FoL will always be too small to top the tank off in progression fights, while HL is likely to keep overhealing.

Anyway, apart from Gruul and Maexxna examples I already mentioned, imagine a situation where the tank takes a steady string of very fast hits of say 8-10k post armor. The current consensus is that a paladin is an excellent choice for tanking such boss because of the ability to reliably remove 2-3k from hits via BV. If you add avoidance in the picture, it is quite feasible for a single healer to keep up such tank using either HoTs or smaller heals such as FoL. Such fight would have to come down to maintaining tank health when frequent small hits are accompanied by frequent small heals.

In practice, however, all healer classes have bigger emergency heals in their arsenal to deal with the situation where the tank cannot be kept up using HoTs or small efficient heals.

So given, in the case of the tankadin taking very frequent 4-5k post BV hits, you can think of this talent as adding 50 block value per talent point, or increasing your healer spell power by 20 per talent point. The latter assumes 2000 spell power and no base heal value for simplicity, and obviously the added spell power will not affect damage absorb spells such as Sacred Shield.

TLDR: all in all, this talent has very marginal and highly situational benefits, kind of like old Redoubt when it didn't scale with BV from strength. Perhaps worth putting points in lieu of PvP talents to unlock deeper talents, but other than that it's ok to skip it.
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Postby Wakeman » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:56 pm

When dual specs is out, you guys better have Holy as the second spec to get some insight of what exactly it is as a healer. Some of your assumption about healers is VERY wrong.

I am Holy currently and one of the core healers of our raid. Unless you are talking about content that everyone is vastly overgeared, 5% (or 10% if both the healadins and the pally tank specced it) more healing DOES matter. This is actually more obvious for fights that everyone takes damage. More healing allows the tank's healers to spend less time healing the tank, so that they can help raid healing more. Not uncommonly I would think if only I could spare one heal to the tank, I could have saved that dps. Because of this, more healing to the tank DOES help the whole raid in those situations. For 5-man, this is even more important as you only have one healer. The healer's "less time on tank = more time on group" logic is even more obvious.

Of course, again I am talking about instance/raid content that is not overgeared yet. For trivial fights like Noth that even I would help dps in healing spec and healing gear, 5-10% more healing is definitely not very useful.

In summary:
- Overgeared: Divinity not very useful
- Progression: Divinity definitely helps
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Postby Conaan! » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:24 pm

Wakeman wrote:When dual specs is out, you guys better have Holy as the second spec to get some insight of what exactly it is as a healer. Some of your assumption about healers is VERY wrong.



played a healer, both as shaman and paladin, yes i know what a healer is, no 5% is not a noticeable difference, especially since EVERYTHING is overheal
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Postby Ossuary » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:58 pm

Ossuary wrote:Take for example, Patchwerk(DPS test on PTR)
I Main Tanked Patchwerk.

Over the course of the fight i received a total of:
Pally#1 (Main Healer) HLr13:486,809 eff Heal
% of Overheal: 76%
Kill Time: 4:17

486,809x1.05 = 511,149.45 So 24,340 Extra healing over 257 seconds
This would have netted an extra 94.7 HP/S

--Edit, shouldn't have divided, it was Effective heal already so i have no idea how to rate how much of that 100~ hp/s would be overheal

And i can assure you, threat will be more important in Ulduar. At least if you want to make some of the hard mode achievements AKA Hodir has an easy 9min enrage timer but a 3min kill time hard mode. Your DPS is going to be going all out and he has a slow attack speed which doesn't favor HS.

P.s. i support Dorvan's idea.


I'd like to point out the reason i chose this healer is This is the patchwerk DPS version on the PTR aka 3.1. and those numbers are only his Holy lights, only on me. No Beacon flow from him.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:27 am

Conaan! wrote:
Wakeman wrote:When dual specs is out, you guys better have Holy as the second spec to get some insight of what exactly it is as a healer. Some of your assumption about healers is VERY wrong.



played a healer, both as shaman and paladin, yes i know what a healer is, no 5% is not a noticeable difference, especially since EVERYTHING is overheal


Come on.. not ALL the heal can be overheal.. just not possible.

In summary:
- Overgeared: Divinity not very useful
- Progression: Divinity definitely helps


This is exactly how I see it too.

If (!) I go dual spec Prot/Prot I will make to talent trees. One: MT (55-60 in Prot depending on new talents) and one 0/53/18 for TPS. Problem solved *g*
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Postby Kriskringle » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:46 am

GothicPL wrote:Switching from HL to FoL is not a good example because of a huge discrepancy in power between the two spells. As things stand today, FoL will always be too small to top the tank off in progression fights, while HL is likely to keep overhealing.


This is true, but when I'm worried about my healing during a fight it's not because I'm under 100% HP, it's because the next hit or two could kill me. As far as I'm concerned, my healers could be using bandages and Gift of the Naaru on me because they probably know how to manage my green bar better than I do. They'll break out bigger heals when it's appropriate. If they don't, we'll go over what happened and do it better next time.

Swapping down from HL to FoL is going to be a hit to HPS, but the idea is to counteract the mana issues that are supposedly being implemented (intentionally) by Blizzard. From a survivability standpoint, I don't ever want my healers to make that switch, but I acknowledge that it will probably be necessary. When it is, and FoL doesn't top me off, I'll be getting the full 5% from Divinity.

Folks in this thread are pretty convincing, though, that this talent doesn't give us much bang for the buck. I'm going to take this because, until I play 3.1 and find differently, it seems like it will be the most helpful place to put those points given the content I do and the people I do it with. If I end up switching out of it to help out some threat-capped DPS, then that's a respec fee I'll gladly pay.

Edited for grammar.
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Postby Grizwold » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:28 am

Conaan! wrote:(unless that 2 stamina will push you over the threshold to survive that one hit without a cd)


This. Basically this whole thing seems to come down to the AD argument. Intrinsically it doesnt seem ideal, but it may be the difference between living with 100 hp and dying. Frankly, weighing all the possibilities, with threat still seemily a joke, I see no reason to drop this in place of a dps/threat alternative that is miniscule.

yes, 5% crit vs 5% heal might seem like alot, but 5% crit at BEST is 5% more dps, lets say your one of the highest DPS tank paladins so your running 3kdps+, your 5% crit is a whopping 150 more dps that may be the difference between hitting an enrage or not, but Id be willing to guess (with current content) that more often youll get killed than hit an enrage or miss an achievement by seconds (that the 150dps would make a difference in).

Is the talent optimal? No, is it better than a TPS increase, Probably.
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