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5/5 Divinity

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Postby mconeone » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:26 am

I'm still torn. Everyone so far has said Divinity blows because 5% healing isn't that great. But what's the alternative? More threat. Which right now we don't need.

I'm going to take it at first and spec into conviction/crusade if I need another 5% threat boost.
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Postby Ossuary » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:45 am

mconeone wrote:I'm still torn. Everyone so far has said Divinity blows because 5% healing isn't that great. But what's the alternative? More threat. Which right now we don't need.

I'm going to take it at first and spec into conviction/crusade if I need another 5% threat boost.


Mabye, but that's also only only considering current easy content. Ulduar from what I've seen has some easy fights and some hard fights and then insane fights.

As stated earlier with Divinity for it to be effective you have to live through the hit and then be healed. Even then a 5% increase on say a 10k heal(easy assumption) is 500 hp. Arguably this could be useful between AD and Divinity stretching that extra 500 but... I also don't run around with a 45k hp pool(13.5k AD kicker) to make this a feasable assumption. That is, to take a 10k heal and STILL be in AD range.

for PROGRESSION tanking, I do not see Divinity being worth any points in my talent tree.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm

Just turn ist arround.

For progression tanking, there is nothing better than that (considering the other options). More heal will keep you alive and less Mana Stress on you're healers. Two things you find interessting when learning a boss.

500 TPS more to not help you learning a boss.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:34 pm

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:Just turn ist arround.

For progression tanking, there is nothing better than that (considering the other options). More heal will keep you alive and less Mana Stress on you're healers. Two things you find interessting when learning a boss.

500 TPS more to not help you learning a boss.


It depends on the encounter. Two main points

1. Whether or not threat is an issue.
2. Even if threat is not an issue, all our threat talents are also DPS talents, so you're slightly shrinking the length of the fight.

The second benefit is rather marginal, but then so is the +healing talent. The problem with talent is that you're only getting any reasonable benefit from it when you're getting healed anyway, so it essentially helps most when you need it least. Without downranking, 5% +heal isn't going to make any difference in what heals your healers are casting, and consequently isn't going to affect your healers' mana situation.

It's important to realize that a major reason spellpower was popular with healers in TBC, and has declined in popularity in WotLK, was that it was a regen as well as a throughput stat. That is, by downranking you could do the same heals as before for less mana. That's not possible now: the power gap between healing spell options is too great.
Last edited by Dorvan on Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:44 pm

Right now Threat is not an issue if I look at what is beeing changed with 3.1 (us and other classes). I can do a warrior's threat even in full avoid gear (what he does in full tps gear).

DPS, right. We can go to the TPS Mathlab threat. I'm sure it is less then 200 DPS and less then 500 TPS even at close to 8,5k sustained TPS.

I don't know a singe boss fight where that would have made a difference. And if, then one Healer (that has to heal me less *g*) can cast an instant cast once in a while ;)
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:51 pm

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:I don't know a singe boss fight where that would have made a difference. And if, then one Healer (that has to heal me less *g*) can cast an instant cast once in a while ;)


The healer doesn't have to heal you any less, that's the problem with Divinity. 5% more healing done on you doesn't translate into 5% less time spent healing you. Like I said, the DPS benefits are marginal if threat isn't an issue, but so is the healing benefit. Also, I don't see how you can know the threat will be trivial in Ulduar when we haven't seen how the new gear will affect our scaling (historically DPS threat has often scaled faster than tank threat), nor all the fight mechanics.

You have, however, given me an idea I could get more interested in: "Players get 1/2/3/4/5% additional haste when casting heals on you". That'd be far more useful than +heal
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Postby Ossuary » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:23 pm

Take for example, Patchwerk(DPS test on PTR)
I Main Tanked Patchwerk.

Over the course of the fight i received a total of:
Pally#1 (Main Healer) HLr13:486,809 eff Heal
% of Overheal: 76%
Kill Time: 4:17

486,809x1.05 = 511,149.45 So 24,340 Extra healing over 257 seconds
This would have netted an extra 94.7 HP/S

--Edit, shouldn't have divided, it was Effective heal already so i have no idea how to rate how much of that 100~ hp/s would be overheal

And i can assure you, threat will be more important in Ulduar. At least if you want to make some of the hard mode achievements AKA Hodir has an easy 9min enrage timer but a 3min kill time hard mode. Your DPS is going to be going all out and he has a slow attack speed which doesn't favor HS.

P.s. i support Dorvan's idea.
Last edited by Ossuary on Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sahiel » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:24 pm

kurtizzle wrote:They should change it to;

Holy Divinity:

Increases your healing/healing recived/holy dmg done by 1/2/3/4/5%
-----------------------------
Something for everyone but if you only need 1 part then its still in the mix against other talents.

IMO


I'd actually sorta like this idea, it wouldn't even be too OP for ret since they've had some damage sources shifted to physical which limits the benefits for them and GC has already mentioned they feel ret damage in 3.1 is too low, especially in pve.
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Postby Melathys » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:13 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Melathys wrote:the spec I was playing with put me at 4/5. Mainly I put those points in there to fill space as I work down the tree. I see it as effective health.


Whether you like Divinity or not, you definitely shouldn't think about it as effective health. A 40k burst that kills you without Divinity will kill you just the same with Divinity.


or, say you're at 12k health, with max health of 36k. you get healed for 10k, now you get healed for 10.5k...I figure that as an effective 500 health, since that's health you wouldn't have had otherwise. Either way, it will help survivability, which is more than can be said of other options to drop further down the tree.
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Postby Dorvan » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:19 pm

Melathys wrote:or, say you're at 12k health, with max health of 36k. you get healed for 10k, now you get healed for 10.5k...I figure that as an effective 500 health, since that's health you wouldn't have had otherwise. Either way, it will help survivability, which is more than can be said of other options to drop further down the tree.



...if you take another spike before getting topped off. If the next thing that happens is that you get topped off, it did nothing. Divinity certainly has *some* potential benefit, but it doesn't increase to size of the maximum spike you can take, which is the definition of EH. Furthermore, it has the property that its benefit scales inversely with the danger you're facing.
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Postby Sarkan-ZdC » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:08 am

Ossuary wrote:Take for example, Patchwerk(DPS test on PTR)
I Main Tanked Patchwerk.

Over the course of the fight i received a total of:
Pally#1 (Main Healer) HLr13:486,809 eff Heal
% of Overheal: 76%
Kill Time: 4:17



Ok, First of all this is the worst fight for healing. Now why? You get the bacon of light, the HolyPaladins spam heal to full the OTs. Say you loose 5k HP, OT gets healed to full, 50% Overheal. You don't loose HP, 100% Overheal.

Also do not make the mistake to look at 3.0.9 encounters with this talent. Right NOW it is not so useful. True. Nobody will challenge that.

Say that new fight in Ulduar, 25k Auto-Hits over a period of 6-10 Minutes. Also manareg for healers WILL get changed!

-> That is the content where +5% can make a difference over a long and very intensive healing periode.

Not 3.0.9 Patchwerk.
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Postby Vioarr » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:41 am

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:
Ossuary wrote:Take for example, Patchwerk(DPS test on PTR)
I Main Tanked Patchwerk.

Over the course of the fight i received a total of:
Pally#1 (Main Healer) HLr13:486,809 eff Heal
% of Overheal: 76%
Kill Time: 4:17



Ok, First of all this is the worst fight for healing. Now why? You get the bacon of light, the HolyPaladins spam heal to full the OTs. Say you loose 5k HP, OT gets healed to full, 50% Overheal. You don't loose HP, 100% Overheal.

Also do not make the mistake to look at 3.0.9 encounters with this talent. Right NOW it is not so useful. True. Nobody will challenge that.

Say that new fight in Ulduar, 25k Auto-Hits over a period of 6-10 Minutes. Also manareg for healers WILL get changed!

-> That is the content where +5% can make a difference over a long and very intensive healing periode.

Not 3.0.9 Patchwerk.


I think that you could argue that if 5% is what's keeping you alive you may want to revisit the strategy chalkboard.
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Postby Petrus » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:00 am

After some discussion with holy paladins, I'm still very torn about whether or not I will take this as prot. It seems very useful and good in some situations but highly questionable in others and I'd rather have SotP in those cases.
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Postby Kriskringle » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:00 pm

There have been blue posts about clamping down on Holy's mana regen. If they make HL spam no longer reasonable for long fights, I'd guess that paladins will be using a lot more FoL. If that is the case, 5% more healing might actually be desirable, right?
Last edited by Kriskringle on Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:02 pm

Sarkan-ZdC wrote:Say that new fight in Ulduar, 25k Auto-Hits over a period of 6-10 Minutes. Also manareg for healers WILL get changed!

-> That is the content where +5% can make a difference over a long and very intensive healing periode.


No. Again, 5% healing will not make any difference in the cast selection of your healers, because you can't downrank to take advantage of the extra +heal. You've yet to explain how this would make any difference in healer mana, I think it's time you elaborated on that point.
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