5/5 Divinity

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Postby Melathys » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:03 pm

the spec I was playing with put me at 4/5. Mainly I put those points in there to fill space as I work down the tree. I see it as effective health.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:06 pm

Melathys wrote:the spec I was playing with put me at 4/5. Mainly I put those points in there to fill space as I work down the tree. I see it as effective health.


Whether you like Divinity or not, you definitely shouldn't think about it as effective health. A 40k burst that kills you without Divinity will kill you just the same with Divinity.
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Postby arilink » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:48 pm

From my point of view Divinity has similarities with Ardent Defender.
It's a talent which shows it's strength on consistent and high incoming damage.
Especially HoTs will be boosted by that talent.

I often sat at the Ardent Defender threshold, eventually longer than a few seconds and eventually I died.
It's not like your HP will be 0% or 100% all the time.
Healers might be busy and getting healed for a few percent more *can* save your life.
Imagine tanking those blazes at Sartharion with both Acolytes up you are thankful for every single factor that might save your ass.

It may not be the best but given the current talent trees like Melathys I'd put 4 points into it.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:52 pm

Crit seems much better for Holy - it is basically the same amount of extra healing, but also gives Inspiration procs, so I don't imagine a lot of Holy paladins will pick up Divinity unless ret is reworked so that the crit talents are available in first 15 points.

At 1% per point, it's weak for healing. The Priest, Druid and Shaman +% heal talents are all +2% per point, 5 points available.

For Prot... it also seems weak. 1% healing received is much worse than 1% mitigation or even 1% avoidance. Our EH talents are 2% to 4% per point, Avoidance/Mitigation are 1-2% per talent point.

The only time this talent is full value is holy paladin healing himself. IE: Maybe it is a decent PvP talent. Overall, 1%+1% does NOT equal 2% in this case. Self healing is a tiny edge case in PvE.

Even our existing +heal received talents are 2% per point (and raid wide).

If Divinity was doubled to 2% per point, if would at least be "on budget". I'd still rate it as weak for prot, but at least it would be a sensible choice for Holy - Mana Efficiency (crit) vs Throughput - which do you want?
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Postby Selinaria » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:29 pm

Basically, what it comes down to for me is one of 3 choices in my tank spec:

4/5 Divinity vs. 2/2 Imp hammer + 2/2 Divine Guardian vs. 4/5 Reckoning.

3 points have to go somewhere to progress past Sanctuary and then 1 point is needed somewhere to get past Holy Shield and AD.

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^This is the talent build (mainly the prot side of things) that I will likely go with.

Most likely for me would be imp hammer and Divine Guardian. Shorter CD interrupt plus the ability to mitigate some raid damage is probably the best choice outta them all. That being said, from a fun standpoint ( not functional lol) reckoning would be kinda nice to take again.

Divinity ranks as last for me personally because of 4 things:

1). That extra 500 hp on a 10k heal isn't gonna keep me alive from the next incoming hit 9 times outta 10. Yes it may save me occasionally but out of all the possible ways to survive incoming damage, increasing healing taken is by far the weakest.

2) Only time a healer should need the extra throughput is if they are undergeared. Other tanks don't need extra healing taken, why should we. If a healer is geared appropriately for the content at hand, they do not need extra throughput that will mostly just be extra overheal.

3) As Knaughty pointed out, it is pretty underbudget compared to most talents of a similar nature for both mitigation, survival and + healing that can have any effect on a tank.

4) Most bad scenarios for tanks (Sarth 3D MT, Malygos MT, etc.) revolve around burst damage. In such a case there should be multiple healers chaining heals on you fairly consistently when the burst is incoming. Once again, a few hundred extra HP is a minor boost.

All in all, I may decide to take it, but probably not gonna unless it is changed.

And as for the holy side of things, I'd rather grab 3 % crit and 15% movement or at least 3% crit and 2% healing over 5% healing since the crit helps me with throughput all the same and increases efficiency to boot.
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Postby Wolvar » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:39 pm

1). That extra 500 hp on a 10k heal isn't gonna keep me alive from the next incoming hit 9 times outta 10. Yes it may save me occasionally but out of all the possible ways to survive incoming damage, increasing healing taken is by far the weakest.


Hah, that's the same logic people get blasted for when they opt out of GBTL. Inconsistency ftl.
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Postby Selinaria » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:42 pm

Wolvar wrote:
1). That extra 500 hp on a 10k heal isn't gonna keep me alive from the next incoming hit 9 times outta 10. Yes it may save me occasionally but out of all the possible ways to survive incoming damage, increasing healing taken is by far the weakest.


Hah, that's the same logic people get blasted for when they opt out of GBTL. Inconsistency ftl.


Mitigation is far and away better than healing though. Reducing the incoming hit by X% up front is much much better. If the healer is doing their job properly, they do not need help healing you up to full.

Divinity is not a bad talent ( certainly not all that great though), just one I am very unlikely to take.

It does have a certain interplay with paladins being the "easy" tank to heal but that is a fairly flawed answer in and of itself.
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Postby Fafa » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:48 pm

Selinaria wrote:4) Most bad scenarios for tanks (Sarth 3D MT, Malygos MT, etc.) revolve around burst damage. In such a case there should be multiple healers chaining heals on you fairly consistently when the burst is incoming. Once again, a few hundred extra HP is a minor boost.


Its easy to say, but quite far from the truth in actuality. On 3D burst scenarios you usually have 1 healer assigned per tank *maybe* 2 on the Sarth tank depending on your raid makeup, and you *might* be getting hots rolled from a druid. Healing is stretched pretty thin in order to meet the dps requirements of the fight. 10 man is an absolute nightmare for healers and any extra throughput you can help them achieve is definitely worth it.
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Postby Selinaria » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:51 pm

Fafa wrote:
Selinaria wrote:4) Most bad scenarios for tanks (Sarth 3D MT, Malygos MT, etc.) revolve around burst damage. In such a case there should be multiple healers chaining heals on you fairly consistently when the burst is incoming. Once again, a few hundred extra HP is a minor boost.


Its easy to say, but quite far from the truth in actuality. On 3D burst scenarios you usually have 1 healer assigned per tank *maybe* 2 on the Sarth tank depending on your raid makeup, and you *might* be getting hots rolled from a druid. Healing is stretched pretty thin in order to meet the dps requirements of the fight. 10 man is an absolute nightmare for healers and any extra throughput you can help them achieve is definitely worth it.


Very true. I do not discount that fact at all. Just gotta see what future hard modes bring to the table to see if this fact remains a reality.

I just wanna say again, it is a viable choice, just not one I am inclined to run with personally :wink:
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:54 pm

Wolvar wrote:Hah, that's the same logic people get blasted for when they opt out of GBTL. Inconsistency ftl.


mitigation and +healing are not the same thing
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Postby Conaan! » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:42 pm

Wolvar wrote:
1). That extra 500 hp on a 10k heal isn't gonna keep me alive from the next incoming hit 9 times outta 10. Yes it may save me occasionally but out of all the possible ways to survive incoming damage, increasing healing taken is by far the weakest.


Hah, that's the same logic people get blasted for when they opt out of GBTL. Inconsistency ftl.


GbtL reduces the damage you take over-all, for divinity to be useful you have to survive the hit, then be healed, therefore it is of less use, and just like one of the major drawbacks to LoH, its reactive not proactive
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Postby Laz » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:05 pm

Wolvar wrote:
1). That extra 500 hp on a 10k heal isn't gonna keep me alive from the next incoming hit 9 times outta 10. Yes it may save me occasionally but out of all the possible ways to survive incoming damage, increasing healing taken is by far the weakest.


Hah, that's the same logic people get blasted for when they opt out of GBTL. Inconsistency ftl.

Well, just to play devil's advocate, 6% spell damage reduction is always 6% spell damage reduction. 5% healing will often be overhealing and therefore less effective. Sort of a moot argument anyway because GbtL will be required with 3.1 to keep your DP up.

p.s. - Divinity is not a good way to spend 5 talent points.
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Postby sherck » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:54 am

Wolvar wrote:it's 5% ON you and 5% BY you. So a holy pally, who would be kinda silly not to take it, gets double benefit on a pally tank.


Removed. Argument made above. I really should read the whole thread before posting....sigh.


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Postby theothersteve7 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:18 am

I talked this one over with my healer.

She said that this talent would be good to have in fights where there's heavy raid damage and healers are using their AOE heals. In fights where the healers are just healing the tank it isn't so important. Loatheb would be great for this, Patchwerk probably not, Grobbulus yes, 4H no, Saph yes.

I guess it's quite okay not to spec the full 5/5, but it's still a good talent.
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Postby kurtizzle » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:42 pm

They should change it to;

Holy Divinity:

Increases your healing/healing recived/holy dmg done by 1/2/3/4/5%
-----------------------------
Something for everyone but if you only need 1 part then its still in the mix against other talents.

IMO
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