Ardent Defender Pros and Cons

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Ardent Defender Pros and Cons

Postby dunnark » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:09 pm

I've seen a ton of builds on this site that all include Ardent Defender. This is a talent that I am not sold on and want to hear what others have to say on this.

On one side of the coin I see that when the pallys health gets that low, giving healers any extra time seems like a really good thing. On the flip side, once you get to the point where you are close to or finally reaching 100% of avoiding crits and crushing blows should you really be below 35% heath often enough for this talent to be worth it? I also see the comment that this can often be "leapfrogged" where the killing damage jumps right over this talent.

So what say you?
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Postby Mithos » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:48 pm

Well it can help, say on silence at Gruul. You take some chain hits and get down to 30% or so (which is around 5.6k for me), he swings and your damage taken, which normamlly would be a 6-8k swing, is then down to a swing you can survive whilst people top you up. It's a passive "oh crap" thing, it can suck yeah, but it can also save you. And you're gonna need everything that can save you on Gruul when you start out ><.
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Postby Lore » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:00 pm

It CAN be leapfrogged, true.

It isn't ALWAYS leapfrogged.

Calling it useless because it doesn't always come into play would be similar to calling block value, armor, or stamina useless... after all, sometimes you dodge or parry, and none of that matters then, right?
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Postby corc » Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:19 pm

considering our strength is in aoe tanking, we'll be taking a lot of "little" hits, and being able to survive while our healer is preoccupied (lag or what-have-you) means less wipes and more progression.

AD is one of the things that sets paladin tanks apart form other tanks, imo.
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Postby Jarkeld » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:40 pm

Also, even in normal circumstances it can be really good. Sure if you compare yourself to a warrior you'll have slightly less health, but how does ardent defender work? Let's say you get hit for 64% of your health followed by 36%, ardent defender didn't work and you just got gged, while a warrior with slightly more health would have survived. But what if you get hit for 66% then 35%? Ardent defendender cuts down on that 35% so you survive, but a warrior who had more slightly health than you doesn't. IMO, it's a highly undervalued tool for tankadin survivability, the main reason being it's really impossible to say how much of a boost it will provide you with, sometimes it's better than being a warrior, sometimes it's worse.

Remember also for multi mob situations, it will almost always be effective for the whole 35%.
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Postby adese » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:42 am

Yes, AD can be leapfrogged. Yes, AD can save your life (and has saved mine many more times than I can count).

The way I see it is that AD is one more tool that I have to help me to stay alive longer than whatever it is that I am tanking. If I don't take it, it is just that much easier for me to die. Therefore, how could I pass up the ability to die less?
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Postby jere » Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:56 am

Also, since one of our niches is currently fast hitting mobs, which typically do less damage per hit, I find AD to be a good tool. It is probably good protection for fights like Leotheras the Blind (you know in case your healers are having a harder time keeping up for whatever reason)

Quite a few of our tools seem to be targetted at either AoE or fast hitting type scenarios. BoSanc, Improved HS, AD, Reckoning, and Redoubt (for example) all favor AoE or fast hitting/low damage mobs
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Postby Worldie » Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:07 am

I was also thinking of getting rid of AD, but in last days i've found myself very often getting under 35% hp (which is not that low when u get to 18k+ hp unbuffed) and getting saved by that -30% damage.

So i have to agree with Lore
It CAN be leapfrogged, true.

It isn't ALWAYS leapfrogged.

i'll never get rid of it, for sure.
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Postby Girard » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:04 am

Raid buffed, I have 16.5k HP.

That means at 5775 Hp, I take 30% less damage.. in order to be leapfrogged, I need to take ~6k or so damage in one hit.

I can only think of 2 bosses that can do that much damage in 1 hit: Gruul (who will WTFPWN a tank after a while anyways, AD or no) and shammy add for Fathomlord.... is there any other bosses that can potentially do that much damage at once?
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Postby Icon » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:37 am

That means at 5775 Hp, I take 30% less damage.. in order to be leapfrogged, I need to take ~6k or so damage in one hit.


I am not sure leapfrogging is the best viewpoint to consider Ardent Defender from. Sure, in the case that happens AD does you no good, but what is more likely to happen is a blow knocks you down somewhere into your 35% health range and you have some fraction of your health, bolstered by AD, to work with.

As example, say you are at 8275 health. A 5000 point hit will knock you down to 3275. A second hit for 5000 would be reduced to 3500 but that would leave you dead.

Of course you could have been at 9000, been hit for 5000 and knocked to 4000 and the next base hit for 5000 would only knock you down to 500 and you'd be alive--having then a 3 hit period for the healers to work in.

There is probably a way to model this appropriately, but as I am headed out the door at the moment I will have to think about it.
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Postby jere » Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:40 pm

Icon wrote:
There is probably a way to model this appropriately, but as I am headed out the door at the moment I will have to think about it.


The way you would model it would be through prob and stats. You need to find the range of damage a boss does, the distribution equation for that damage (how often does he do each value of damage in his range), and the matchng range of health you are at when AD will save you. Using those equations, you could lay out a "no death" distribution function and that would be what you would want to look at. It gets pretty complicated quick. If you figure in a healing distribution as well (which would be random), then it gets even more complicated. Oh and figuring in special attacks that are on a different timer than say auto attacks from the boss would add some complexity too.
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Postby Afraithe » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:10 pm

First time I tanked Gruul, Ardent Defender saved me 3-4 times, we where a bit low on healers and we have him on farm, so I got to have a go (we 1-shot him).

Saved me on some trash stuff to, it just gives the healers that extra second they need to get that heal in.
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Postby Prepared » Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:30 pm

My safe zone is 6.8k in my stamina set. That's pretty effing nice when tanking adds on Tidewalker, Al'ar, and also when tanking the hunter and his pet buddy on FLK, shatters on Gruul, adds on Hydross, etc etc.

As Rick said: "Never gonna give you up."
"Judgement day's not coming soon enough."


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Defense < 490 = Healing gear or Hydross gear.
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Postby pyrotechniq » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:42 am

Girard wrote:Raid buffed, I have 16.5k HP.

That means at 5775 Hp, I take 30% less damage.. in order to be leapfrogged, I need to take ~6k or so damage in one hit.

I can only think of 2 bosses that can do that much damage in 1 hit: Gruul (who will WTFPWN a tank after a while anyways, AD or no) and shammy add for Fathomlord.... is there any other bosses that can potentially do that much damage at once?


shammy add on fathom lord does multiple attacks for the big spike dmg. So my question would be would it make the third attack less? Or would lag cause it to not come into play?

That said you its not safe to hover below 50% on that fight at all because of the random shadow thingy's that hit you for 50% of your hp.
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Postby Jarkeld » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:04 am

Best way to find out is duel a friend who can do 2 seperate hits off the same ability, so they go at the same time, have him do it when you're at 36% hp and see what the results are. I'll test it out myself if I can find a willing shaman.
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