3.1 spec 5/53/13 vs 0/53/18

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Postby Conaan! » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:05 pm

Fafa wrote:That's not entirely true. Reckoning can be very useful on trash for tabbing and applying SoV stacks. Its not 100% dependable by any means, but its definitely not completely worthless on trash and only good for bosses. Yes atm all trash is aoe and a joke - I highly doubt it will stay that way forever. I've never had agro problems on aoe trash working as I do tabbing and getting at least 2-3 stacks on everything, so I see no reason to justify speccing into a stronger aoe threat spec at the cost of losing crucial MT talents.

Sorry, thought I was being pretty clear with the whole "I will not give up X and X talents prot because of my postition" and am simply offering up how reckoning has been benefiting me overall. Everyone is so quick to jump in and nay-say about it. I've been playing with full reckoning for a while a now and I have found it to be far more useful than any of the alternatives *I* have.


you stated
Against bosses, yeah its pretty much the same. But seeing how trash is typically over 50% of an instance, I tend to care about it as well.


which is saying "its good for trash threat" which was answered with
Well then you wouldn't touch reckoning. All the other options provide better AoE threat.


which is saying, theres better options

you then COMPLETELY stop reading what he said and state
Why wouldn't I? I'm the main tank not just a trash/off tank. MTs tank trash too you know. I care about my single target mitigation/threat/dps as a priority and spec for it. I would never spec to do better on trash and worse on a boss (ie all these specs popping up that drop JotJ and AD).


that you will not spec for threat on trash, and you care about single target threat more than aoe threat, which then bars the question, why did you state its effectiveness on trash and how its 50% of an instance?
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Postby Fafa » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:24 pm

Its going right over your head isn't it?

Divine guardian does absolutely nothing for threat output on trash. Reckoning does.

I'm pretty sure I never asked, "hey guys whats the best aoe threat spec?"

It seems you are entirely missing the point that currently I can not spec crusade, not by a long shot. I might be able to with the changes to prot tree in 3.1 but I would only be able to go 2 pts deep into it. Hence why I am looking at keeping reckoning still.

You are really not adding anything constructive by nitpicking what I have said and starting a flame war over whats best for trash. If you don't like reckoning fine - I don't really care. I came to ask if anyone had any solid comparisons of it against the crusade specs because thus far all I have seen are SotP w/ DG comparisons. You obviously don't, so please move along.
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Postby majiben » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:29 pm

You're a damn 3.1 thread.
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Postby Conaan! » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:31 pm

Fafa wrote:Its going right over your head isn't it?

Divine guardian does absolutely nothing for threat output on trash. Reckoning does.

I'm pretty sure I never asked, "hey guys whats the best aoe threat spec?"

It seems you are entirely missing the point that currently I can not spec crusade, not by a long shot. I might be able to with the changes to prot tree in 3.1 but I would only be able to go 2 pts deep into it. Hence why I am looking at keeping reckoning still.

You are really not adding anything constructive by nitpicking what I have said and starting a flame war over whats best for trash. If you don't like reckoning fine - I don't really care. I came to ask if anyone had any solid comparisons of it against the crusade specs because thus far all I have seen are SotP w/ DG comparisons. You obviously don't, so please move along.


thread title:
3.1 spec 5/53/13 vs 0/53/18


nothing about currently, its about the future, statement still stands
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Postby steadypal » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:38 pm

damm u guys screwed my post lol


i put 4 points into reckoning cause the new tier 1 talent isnt there, and i do not want to get DG or hammer talents...

i think the rumored t1 talent is kinda lame tho, but oh well



15% more dmg/threat from sov judge/dot

vs

3-6% more dmg from all ??


thats the big question right?



i was thinkin SOTP with hotr glyph would be pretty hot,, idk yet...


and if the tier 1 talent is good and worth filling up,, would we then just put 2/3 into crusade?



and btw i do like reckoning, melee is still top 3-4 of my dmg in raids,,, might have gone a tad down since going from broken promise to last laugh,, dmg range on broken promise was FTW btw lol





sooooo

5/53/13 vs 0/53/18 ?



what are some of ur guys specs going to be,, talkin to the ppl that know their stuff and are arguing in this thread... will u take the 5% healing talent in t1?
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:44 pm

It's already been discussed in other threads, but here's the summary:

-- 0/53/18 > 5/53/13 for threat (I'm very confident in that, see Theckhd's thread in Advanced training for details)

-- I consider Divinity to be quite weak. +healing is far less useful than mitigation or avoidance, as it doesn't do much to either help you survive burst or make burst events more rare.

-- There are 4 points to spend in early Prot on some combination of the following talents:

Divinity
Imp HoJ
Divine Guardian
Reckoning

I think there are good cases to be made for any combination of those 4 talents, it'll mostly come down to personal preference.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:06 pm

To follow up on the Reckoning discussion, here are results I pulled from Jonesy/Theck's work (Assumed non-Crusade mob):

Code: Select all
Spec                 DPS          TPS
5/60/6              3131         8100
5/60/6 + Reck       3193         8191
0/53/18             3229         8327
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Postby Fafa » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:10 pm

Dorvan wrote:-- I consider Divinity to be quite weak. +healing is far less useful than mitigation or avoidance, as it doesn't do much to either help you survive burst or make burst events more rare.


There are no mitigation or avoidance alternatives to it though, only dps alternatives. Given that, I would rather be easier to keep alive than to do more dps/tps. There have been plenty of situations where a little extra healing throughput would have saved the day when I got low after a burst.


Are those numbers with 5/5 reckoning vs 3/3 crusade? It looks like I could comfortably stick with SotP and Reckoning to have full Divinity against non-crusade mobs.

But against crusade mobs a 53/18 with only 4 in Divinity will probably be the way to go for me and I might end up settling on that permanently.
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Postby Valerius » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:23 pm

Fafa wrote:
Dorvan wrote:-- I consider Divinity to be quite weak. +healing is far less useful than mitigation or avoidance, as it doesn't do much to either help you survive burst or make burst events more rare.


There are no mitigation or avoidance alternatives to it though, only dps alternatives. Given that, I would rather be easier to keep alive than to do more dps/tps. There have been plenty of situations where a little extra healing throughput would have saved the day when I got low after a burst.


Are those numbers with 5/5 reckoning vs 3/3 crusade? It looks like I could comfortably stick with SotP and Reckoning to have full Divinity.


I have to respectfully disagree with you here. To me, Divinity should actually say "Increases Over-healing by 1-5%", because that is what I truly believe it will do in the end. It cannot be considered EH, mitigation or (obviously) avoidance, because you had to have survived the hit in the first place to gain the benefit of the extra healing (therefore it is not an EH talent), it doesn't take any damage off of a landed attack (not mitigation), and it's plainly not an avoidance talent.

I personally think it is very lackluster, and will be avoiding it in favor of other talents that I see as adding more value (DG, even though it is being nerfed, Imp. Hammer chief among the talents I'd grab instead)
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:24 pm

Fafa wrote:There are no mitigation or avoidance alternatives to it though, only dps alternatives. Given that, I would rather be easier to keep alive than to do more dps/tps. There have been plenty of situations where a little extra healing throughput would have saved the day when I got low after a burst.


Well, there's always a ratio at which anyone will be willing to trade off mitigation to gain damage. To take an extreme example to prove the point, any tank would sacrifice 10% mitigation to gain 1 million DPS. Many would sacrifice 10% to gain 10k DPS.

So simply saying "mitigation > dps" isn't enough, when the talent is as weak as Divinity is, figuring out where that tradeoff falls for you becomes important.

Of course, it's a bit of a moot point anyway, as you can take 4/5 Divinty in a crusade spec if you want to.
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Postby Fafa » Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:37 pm

Valerius wrote:I have to respectfully disagree with you here. To me, Divinity should actually say "Increases Over-healing by 1-5%", because that is what I truly believe it will do in the end. It cannot be considered EH, mitigation or (obviously) avoidance, because you had to have survived the hit in the first place to gain the benefit of the extra healing (therefore it is not an EH talent), it doesn't take any damage off of a landed attack (not mitigation), and it's plainly not an avoidance talent.

I personally think it is very lackluster, and will be avoiding it in favor of other talents that I see as adding more value (DG, even though it is being nerfed, Imp. Hammer chief among the talents I'd grab instead)


I both agree and disagree. Most of the times it will do nothing but cause overhealing - very true. But in pinch situations it can be a lifesaver the same as AD. A good example that comes to mind only because its been happening to me recently: 3d 10 man - first two drakes, double breath then a melee swing from drakes/adds. The extra healing from Divinity might have had those druid hots ticking bring me up high enough to survive those melee swings until the pally finished his cast. If Ulduar has any burst dmg like that in store, I most definitely will be picking it up.
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Postby Conaan! » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:13 pm

Divinity will shine in only a handful of cases, such as decimate during gluth, something wheres theres an immediate need to top off the tank and theres also some raid damage going around, but really only burst damage is where it shines
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Postby steadypal » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:45 pm

sooo

guess i'll stay 0/53/18



4/5 divinity OR 4/5 reckoning ? HMMMMMMMM

even tho 3/5 reckoning is ideal if memory is right


3/5 reck and 1/5 divinity i suppose MEH
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Postby majiben » Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:50 pm

3/5 is ideal from a cost to benefit ratio but points beyond 3 still provide a higher uptime.
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A similar spec question

Postby Norfolk » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:12 pm

I'm currently looking at something really close to this, 54/17 but I'm not sure whether to spend the last 2 points on Crusade for the additional 2% damage increase, or on Vindication.

I'm playing as Retribution currently and plan to dual spec into Prot with 3.1 and have been working on my gear so now it's time to look a lot more closely at the spec.
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