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5/5 SoTp versus 3/5 Conviction + 2/3 Crusade

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SoTp 5/5 or 3/5 conviction + 2/3 crusade?

SoTp 5/5
12
24%
3/5 conviction + 2/3 crusade
38
76%
 
Total votes : 50

5/5 SoTp versus 3/5 Conviction + 2/3 Crusade

Postby Cryblood » Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:00 pm

i normally run with maxed out Seals of the pure but i was wondering would 3% crit and 4% more dmg in raid pull more threat?

Another note is even in 25 mans ive found myself constantly having to switch over to Seal of wisdom due to mana issues, making a large part of the threat on SoTp drop

also when patch 3.1 comes i was going to throw another point into crusade for another 2% dmg
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Postby Conaan! » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:33 pm

conviction + crusade will out weigh SotP, simple logic, Sotp applies to only one thing, crusade applies to all, and conviction applies to 3/4 of abilities
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Postby majiben » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:15 am

That's poor logic conaan. You don't take weights into account.
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Postby Conaan! » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:13 am

Majiben wrote:That's poor logic conaan. You don't take weights into account.


poor logic would be to say that one ability that applies to only 2 damage sources is going to outweigh 2 abilities that take everything and almost everything into account

even if its 15%, your still getting 3% on shield slam, hotr, consecrate, holy shield, sov ticks, sov judgement, avengers shield, its not hard to understand

lets look at what its adding:

Shield slam, assuming 3,313 avg damage, 66.2 damage added

Judgement, assuming 1,262 avg damage, adding 25.2 damage

HotR, assuming 2,045 avg damage, adds 40.9 damage

holy shield, assuming 735 damage, adds 14.7 damage

exorcism, assuming 2,045 damage, adds 40.9 damage

SoV ticks, assuming 509 damage (per tick), adds 10.18 (per tick)

Consecration, assuming 339 damage (per tick), adds 6.78 (per tick)

adding 204.86 increase in damage across all

now lets look at what SotP is giving us:

judgement, assuming 1,262 avg damage, 189.3 damage

SoV ticks, assuming 509 damage (per tick), adds 73.65

adding 262.95

meaning SotP comes ahead by 58.09, but thats only crusade, your still getting 5/5 conviction or 3/5 conviction 2/2 poj, and let me quote knaughty here over at EJ
I just ran my last set of numbers from a PW kill through a spreadsheet. I'm 5/60/6, doing 969 rotation, no ShoR-bug-abuse.

SotP: 11,359 damage (what it actually gave me), 31k threat.

Convition: 11,851 damage (what Conviction would give, on average) 27k threat.


conviction is close enough, that im sure that crusade will boost it over SotP, as it is 58 damage of each other

WMO link for info:
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/de ... #damageout
[10]naxx patch kill

yes this is rough math and a bunch of assumptions, but its logical enough to follow through with and do some testing

dont throw it out the window just yet
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:24 am

Conaan! wrote:SotP: 11,359 damage (what it actually gave me), 31k threat.

Convition: 11,851 damage (what Conviction would give, on average) 27k threat.


Granted, the dps difference between choosing SotP vs Conviction prior to 3.1 has been documented.

The DPS is very close with a nod to conviction if your gear was topped out and you had full raid buffs.

TPS was not close, as SotP was getting the full threat modifier, so was still ahead in pure threat.

However, in 3.1, with the ability to spec all the way into 3/3 crusade, there is no contest. The high threat build will be the Ret talent 5/5 conviction and 3/3 crusade.

Now, if the PTR was stable enough to actually play, I would provide some actual numbers, but for now, I have to rely on simple math.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:59 am

Conaan! wrote:
Majiben wrote:That's poor logic conaan. You don't take weights into account.


poor logic would be to say that one ability that applies to only 2 damage sources is going to outweigh 2 abilities that take everything and almost everything into account


I was actually thinking the same thing about the logic being flawed even if the conclusions are right as I read it. It's not only "how many abilities it applies to" that matters, but what the effect on the abilities is. A priori, it's not clear at all whether 3% damage to Seal/Judgment is better or worse than 1% damage or 1% crit, and in fact it's better than one and worse than the other.

Bottom line: "simple logic" has lead to many incorrect conclusions in theorycraft, questions like the one asked aren't obvious and should be answered by doing the math, not saying handwaving. Thanks for following up with your 2nd post.
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Postby Turumbar » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:37 am

Does Reckoning change the equation at all?

I haven't had Reck for ages, but I always enjoyed the talent and was hoping that it might become somewhat useful again.

By not going deeper into Ret, you could easily put 4/5 into Reck.

Or is Reck still flawed as it becomes useless as gear gets better?
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:34 pm

Turumbar wrote:Does Reckoning change the equation at all?

I haven't had Reck for ages, but I always enjoyed the talent and was hoping that it might become somewhat useful again.

By not going deeper into Ret, you could easily put 4/5 into Reck.

Or is Reck still flawed as it becomes useless as gear gets better?


The main problem with Reckoning continues to be that it only effects our white damage, which doesn't get the Righteous Fury threat multiplier. It's worth modeling it's effect though, and is something we should be adding to Jonesy's spreadsheet.
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Postby Wolvar » Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:52 pm

Reckoning talent builds should be running SOR instead of SOV... so it would affect threat somewhat. Making SOR able to crit would make reckoning much more viable. It would also make conviction and sanctified seals MUCH more attractive.
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Postby majiben » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:15 pm

Do not use SoR if you have reckoning, you're just dropping your threat. Yes SoR performs better with SoR and no it does not preform better than SoV.
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Postby Leloo » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:52 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:However, in 3.1, with the ability to spec all the way into 3/3 crusade, there is no contest. The high threat build will be the Ret talent 5/5 conviction and 3/3 crusade.


I assume you're not taking JotJ to go 0/51/18 for 5/5 conviction and 3/3 crusade. If we've established that SotP is better for threat than Conviction, why not take those 2 extra points and go 2/51/16 with 2/5 SotP, 3/5 Conviction and 3/3 crusade?

You could then even move 2 points from PoJ and go back to 5/5 Conviction if you have other means of increasing speed.
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Postby Fridmarr » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:14 pm

Wolvar wrote:Reckoning talent builds should be running SOR instead of SOV... so it would affect threat somewhat. Making SOR able to crit would make reckoning much more viable. It would also make conviction and sanctified seals MUCH more attractive.


Seal of Blood can crit.
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Postby Levantine » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:26 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Wolvar wrote:Reckoning talent builds should be running SOR instead of SOV... so it would affect threat somewhat. Making SOR able to crit would make reckoning much more viable. It would also make conviction and sanctified seals MUCH more attractive.


Seal of Blood can crit.


And scales with Protection Paladin stats in a much friendlier way.
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Postby Cryblood » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:40 pm

Leloo wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:However, in 3.1, with the ability to spec all the way into 3/3 crusade, there is no contest. The high threat build will be the Ret talent 5/5 conviction and 3/3 crusade.


I assume you're not taking JotJ to go 0/51/18 for 5/5 conviction and 3/3 crusade. If we've established that SotP is better for threat than Conviction, why not take those 2 extra points and go 2/51/16 with 2/5 SotP, 3/5 Conviction and 3/3 crusade?

You could then even move 2 points from PoJ and go back to 5/5 Conviction if you have other means of increasing speed.


currently on ptr im able to get 3/3 crusade and still have the points to grab JotJ, but currently im not running with it on live, also im only taking 3/5 conviction and keeping 2/2 PoJ
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:06 pm

Leloo wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:However, in 3.1, with the ability to spec all the way into 3/3 crusade, there is no contest. The high threat build will be the Ret talent 5/5 conviction and 3/3 crusade.


I assume you're not taking JotJ to go 0/51/18 for 5/5 conviction and 3/3 crusade. If we've established that SotP is better for threat than Conviction, why not take those 2 extra points and go 2/51/16 with 2/5 SotP, 3/5 Conviction and 3/3 crusade?

You could then even move 2 points from PoJ and go back to 5/5 Conviction if you have other means of increasing speed.


No, we have 71 points to play with so am talking about 0/53/18 build

All mandatory prot talents are taken.

Frankly, under 3.1, SotP is simply not the talent of choice...for now.

Keep in mind, we have no idea yet what Blizzard may do. They are talking about changes to Ret damage for PvE...any change they make, can and probably will have an after-shock effect to our dps/tps.

You also have to remember that right up to late Beta in 3.0, SotP was a great talent, but then at the last moment they did a couple of consecutive nerfs to Seal/Judge damage which made it very close to borderline.

Any significant change to judge/seal damage coefficients could have a fairly major effect on what the optimal threat spec is going to be.
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