PoJ Discussion (Split from the 3.09 Patch Thread)

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Postby daemonym » Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:26 am

Levantine wrote:To be blunt, it's all flavor past the core build. Do what you want with the points, all the options are correct.

PS dontcha just love not having a cookie cutter build?


this. i take poj because i like moving faster. and tuskar's is expensive (sorta kinda i guess). sometimes i'll tale sotp because i like pretty numbers. max your mitigation then do w/e yo please.
Again. What grim vision this? Blood stained tomb, beer cans, and piss. This. Is no life...for a god.

Stokpile/Zurathustra of Ysera-US, Horde
Makin the WoW gold blog http://theahpile.blogspot.com/
I have 2 million gold. http://theahpile.blogspot.com/2011/05/i-have-2-million-gold.html
Total as of 5-3-11: 2,064,000g
User avatar
daemonym
 
Posts: 2322
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:05 pm
Location: With Cats on Mars

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:59 am

Conaan! wrote:im gonna have to stop you there, 2 talent points for 7 stamina and faster movement, if you follow that logic, 6% spell damage reduction from guarded by the light just isnt worth the talent points, or anything for that matter, its a amount large enough to help

7 stamina and 15% faster movement. One of which you can gem for, and one of which you can enchant for to a smaller extent. Show me where I can gem for 6% spell damage reduction again? You can't. That analogy is horribly flawed.

Also, Elsie's comment on how flawed it is is way funnier than mine. /fail

Conaan! wrote:SotP beats conviction only by a small margin, i think something like 5% or so, is that 5% extra really going to help you more than the clutch taunt on the boss you just barely got into range with before it rapes your melee dps?

That extra run speed you talented only came into play because you lost threat on the boss, thanks to the 5% threat you sacrificed to get it. See, I can come up with ridiculous (and useless) hypothetical situations too.

Now, to be more serious, let's double check Dorvan's calculations. From what I can find, wow run speed is 40 yards / 6 seconds or 6.667 yd/s. With the 8% boot enchant, it's exactly 7.2 yd/s, and with PoJ it's 7.667 yd/s. Thus, the difference in run speed is 0.467 yd/s. For that to make a 1 second difference in the time it takes to reach a mob, you'd calculate D/7.2 - D/7.667 > 1, and solve for D, which turns out to be D > (7.667 * 7.2) / 0.467 =118.2 yards, or just over 16 seconds of run time with the 8% enchant.

What in the world were you doing 120 yards away from the boss you're supposed to be tanking again?

Conaan! wrote:utility > threat when it comes to talents

Respectfully disagree. Threat is a core part of being a tank. So is utility. Neither is ever going to be always better than the other, it's a tradeoff that depends on multiple factors, including your gear level, the gear level of your raid, the content you're pushing, and your innate skill and play style.

Let me put it this way though: I have run into situations in this game so far when I wanted all the extra threat I could muster, and it did make the difference between a kill and a wipe. I have not yet found a fight where the extra 7% run speed conveys the same benefit, especially in light of the fact that our taunts, Avenger's Shield, Exorcism, and Judgement are all ranged abilities.

Trying to make blanket statements that attempt to make one out to be better than the other in every situations is not just disingenuous, it's also incorrect, and to be frank comes across as rather ignorant. There are many tanks on this forum who manage to tank all the available content in the game without PoJ, just like there are many that have done so with a PoJ build. Most of us are well aware of the tradeoff that SotP vs. PoJ entails, and are capable of making an intelligent decision about it based on our specific situations.

And I don't want to start coming across as jerk here, but assuming you're this Conaan, which seems likely since there's only one Human paladin named Conaan on the armory, and Shadowsong has a guild named Replaceable Parts, which is in your profile picture, your achievements show that you haven't done Sarth with any drakes yet, and while you've done Malygos, your gear is mostly from 10-mans and badges, including your two Valorous items (shoulder and legs).

If your guild is similarly geared, you probably haven't run into any fights in which you're pressed for threat. However, you will quickly find that with 25-man gear, there are several fights where DPS will catch up to and/or overtake you if they're not careful, heroic Malygos being the primary one that comes to mind. As such, you're really not in a good position to be telling anyone how important Threat is for a tank, since you haven't been put into a position where it's mattered.

So in your case, the choice of PoJ may be an intelligent decision, since you know threat isn't an issue for you yet (though in that case, why use the 2% threat glove enchant). But I guarantee it will be in harder content, and most certainly will come into play in Ulduar. And at that point, you might start re-evaluating your "utility > threat" opinion.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7950
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Postby Dorvan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:03 am

Conaan! wrote:im gonna have to stop you there, 2 talent points for 7 stamina and faster movement, if you follow that logic, 6% spell damage reduction from guarded by the light just isnt worth the talent points, or anything for that matter, its a amount large enough to help

SotP beats conviction only by a small margin, i think something like 5% or so, is that 5% extra really going to help you more than the clutch taunt on the boss you just barely got into range with before it rapes your melee dps?

utility > threat when it comes to talents


However, as I pointed out earlier PoJ costs more than 2 talent points for a Prot Pally: it costs at least 3, possibly 6 talent points.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:05 am

Talent points that you have nothing else worth having to buy with, however.
User avatar
Panzerdin
 
Posts: 5504
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:51 pm
Location: On a picket line, protesting against the changes to Maintankadin

Postby Dorvan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:07 am

Panzerdin wrote:Talent points that you have nothing else worth having to buy with, however.


Seals of the Pure my not be your favorite talent, but it's certainly a worthy use of points (especially when the argument is being made that PoJ is a threat talent). DG I'll grant isn't much of a loss, which is why I'm more understanding of PoJ in a 10 man build where you're likely providing HotC as well.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:13 am

Quite honestly, I've never been as good at movement as I perhaps could be, and PoJ sometimes makes the difference between me tanking the next phase, and me cleaning the floor with my face. HotC or no, it's far better than any bonus to seals when viewed from that perspective.
User avatar
Panzerdin
 
Posts: 5504
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:51 pm
Location: On a picket line, protesting against the changes to Maintankadin

Postby Dorvan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:16 am

Panzerdin wrote:Quite honestly, I've never been as good at movement as I perhaps could be, and PoJ sometimes makes the difference between me tanking the next phase, and me cleaning the floor with my face. HotC or no, it's far better than any bonus to seals when viewed from that perspective.


Well, maybe PoJ can make up for latency or something, I don't have that issue with my connection or so I wouldn't know. However, it's pretty hard to judge when 115% speed would save you from something but 108% wouldn't though...that's a very slim window.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:18 am

Dorvan wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:Quite honestly, I've never been as good at movement as I perhaps could be, and PoJ sometimes makes the difference between me tanking the next phase, and me cleaning the floor with my face. HotC or no, it's far better than any bonus to seals when viewed from that perspective.


Well, maybe PoJ can make up for latency or something, I don't have that issue with my connection or so I wouldn't know. However, it's pretty hard to judge when 115% speed would save you from something but 108% wouldn't though...that's a very slim window.


Every little helps. And it isn't latency, I'm just not very good at it (I'm by no means BAD, but I'm aware that it's a fault I have as a player and I do my best to minimise it. For me, taking HotC and losing a little threat is worth it to reduce the risk of such a mishap).
User avatar
Panzerdin
 
Posts: 5504
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:51 pm
Location: On a picket line, protesting against the changes to Maintankadin

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:28 am

You won't. It even lets an unaware incompetent like me avoid AOE damage/get where you need to be.
User avatar
Panzerdin
 
Posts: 5504
Joined: Sat May 24, 2008 2:51 pm
Location: On a picket line, protesting against the changes to Maintankadin

Postby fafhrd » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:34 am

Does the movement speed from PoJ stack with the DK raid-wide aura for 15% movement speed? I'd think not.

I don't know what DK's give up to get that, but we seem to always have it without asking for it on any fight people move anyway.

And last I saw, at 70 run speed was a better enchant than DPS enchants only for classes that:
a. had extremely high DPS
b. did 0 DPS until they moved to the right place

This basically amounted to just rogues, eventually warriors and some enhancement shamans. And only on fights that required movement, they swapped to non-runspeed boots on stationary fights.

For pallies I suppose (a) would apply (TPS instead of DPS), but I don't think (b) applies (as TPS or DPS).
ImageImage
1/1 Lore pre-nerf.
User avatar
fafhrd
 
Posts: 5432
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:31 pm

Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:45 am

Belarkan wrote:Any reason why you need PoJ ?

My first, second, and third responses involve PoJ being pried from my cold, dead fingers. If the threat or damage difference between using Seals of the Pure and not using it is overwhelming, I'd reconsider, but for now ... I prefer the movement. I really missed it when I didn't have it.
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:56 am

Hey guys, I appreciate the good-natured discussion here, but I feel it has strayed from the topic.

Can we move the PoJ discussion to the Talent Spec forums? And then keep this thread about 3.0.9? Thanks.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10473
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Postby Frew » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:48 pm

I'm a tank that takes PoJ. It helps me tank. I move faster through instances. It helps me chain pull trash in Naxx. It helps me collect adds in 3drake Sarth.

The reason I take it over that waste of 5 points into holy (in my opinion) is because I see how much damage/threat my seals/dots of Vengeance actually do and feel it isn't worth it. I find that my melee damage (although not multiplied by RF), Hammer and shield do the most damage on raid bosses. I also happen to bring another imp might buff into the raid. I also bring 3% more crit to the raid, just incase one of our ret paladins dies.

I've MT'd Maly with full t7.25 on a 3 stack spark. I manage CD's (wings, etc) along with salv rotations to keep dps down and manageable. I have NEVER lost threat in that fight. I can judge, AS and consecrate too while I'm in the air.

To get this back on track - I really like the idea of 30min buffs. Nothing like messing up your rotation or realizing you've tanked the last ~15 seconds with no seal on!!
Image Image
User avatar
Frew
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:09 am

Postby kurros » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:16 pm

Conaan! wrote:
theckhd wrote:And I don't want to start coming across as jerk here, but assuming you're this Conaan, which seems likely since there's only one Human paladin named Conaan on the armory, and Shadowsong has a guild named Replaceable Parts, which is in your profile picture, your achievements show that you haven't done Sarth with any drakes yet, and while you've done Malygos, your gear is mostly from 10-mans and badges, including your two Valorous items (shoulder and legs).

low blow boy, really, you think my achievement will put weight on my words? yes threat in maly 25 is a problem, maybe in 3 drakes your having trouble too, but then you can spec there, for anything other than 3 drake sarth and maly 25 my argument still holds that utility does infact beat threat that is not needed


I have tanked Malygos 25 (and killed him, multiple times) and 2 drakes, and while we haven't had a kill yet I am familiar with the 3 drake fight. And I can say I would *never* trade PoJ for any minor threat benefit.

On Malygos, positioning Malygos as fast as possible after each vortex is so important it's practically the whole fight. If nobody dies due to bad breaths in phase 1 it's usually a kill, as phase 2 and 3 are a joke with a full raid alive. Is threat an issue on Malygos? It's a trick question. Threat can be a huge issue, with warlocks free to fully dps while the tank is trapped in vortex, but he is a tauntable boss. There is ZERO reason to cripple your mobility just to pick up some minor threat increase when you can instead use a taunt and be guaranteed top threat after each vortex. The fact you have 2 taunts just makes it even more laughable, worst case scenario you get a taunt resisted you can just use the other one.

On 3 drake sarth, again mobility is key. Picking up the drake, moving between the 2 lava wall gaps and keeping him from facing the raid is all made easier with PoJ. Threat has never been an issue for me, the drakes don't hit so hard so you can just blow wings during the big bloodlust-assisted DPS race. And again, the bosses are tauntable, why waste talents on threat when, even in a worst case scenario you do lose agro, you can just taunt it right back?

PoJ is basically a required talent for protection, unless you have an unholy DK tied to your hip for unholy aura.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
kurros
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2007 11:51 am

Postby Dorvan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:21 pm

kurros wrote:PoJ is basically a required talent for protection, unless you have an unholy DK tied to your hip for unholy aura.


Have you compared to doing this stuff with 108% speed. One problem I often see is that people with PoJ obviously don't have Tuskarr's Vitality on their boots, so if they try going without PoJ briefly they're comparing 115% speed to 100% speed, instead of 108% speed. I regularly go between Ret (where I have PoJ), and Prot (where I don't and have Tuskarr's Vitality on my boots), and the difference between those two speed is barely noticable. I know there are big fans of PoJ around here, but to call PoJ a required talent is a gross overstatement.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest