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PoJ Discussion (Split from the 3.09 Patch Thread)

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Postby kurros » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:14 am

Khayne wrote:Saying that AD is "Worthless for progression tanking"", is in my view even more flawed than saying "PoJ is worthless"

Both got their shining moments, i'd just personally rather take that AD.


When you put it that way, I'd actually agree with you- I'd rather have 5/5 AD than 2/2 PoJ if all things were equal. But they aren't. 5/5 Ad costs 5 talent points, 2/2 PoJ costs only 2 (for me, if you do not consider heart of the crusader a worthwhile talent you will disagree).

But for 5 talent points, I don't think AD is worthwhile, it's just too weak for the cost. While 2 talent points would be reasonable to me, I'd rather they just fix the talent and make it match will of the necropolis.
Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. Go away, or I'll just start reporting you to the mods for being a troll. In exchange, I'll stop pointing out your stupid in public.
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Postby Khayne » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:54 pm

kurros wrote:
Khayne wrote:Saying that AD is "Worthless for progression tanking"", is in my view even more flawed than saying "PoJ is worthless"

Both got their shining moments, i'd just personally rather take that AD.


When you put it that way, I'd actually agree with you- I'd rather have 5/5 AD than 2/2 PoJ if all things were equal. But they aren't. 5/5 Ad costs 5 talent points, 2/2 PoJ costs only 2 (for me, if you do not consider heart of the crusader a worthwhile talent you will disagree).

But for 5 talent points, I don't think AD is worthwhile, it's just too weak for the cost. While 2 talent points would be reasonable to me, I'd rather they just fix the talent and make it match will of the necropolis.


I wouldn't mind a small buff to it either, but we just value the talents slightly differently. Nice that we can still see that others can have valid reasons for their choices too.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:08 pm

One semi-unrelated note, but it's been bugging me to no end since I noticed it so I've got to mention it. I mean this is the friendliest way possible, but if you're going to have such an arrogant/condescending sounding sig kurros, you should probably differentiate between "your" and "you're" correctly :)
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Postby arilink » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:05 pm

As I haven't seen any clear statement on SotP TPS increase either I just put my stats into that decent TPS spreadsheet found on these forums and the results were 2.8% more TPS with 5/5 SotP compared to 0/5.

My two cents:
I am considering 2.8% more threat a worthwhile gain on stuff where it is needed.
Malygos that is for example (6 minutes).
However I have no threat issues on other bosses.

Issues come up with like AE trash pulls and the initial aggro as well as some intended 'adds' along the pull etc.
SotP does little regarding initial aggro unless you are using SoR in which case that HotR should be sufficient already.
PoJ may because being earlier at the 4+ mobs could allow that one consecration tick/ holy shield block to make the difference on ae pulls in my experience.
You know those crazy dps, don't you? ...
Also on heavy movement encounters like malygos (circling around sparks w/o dks), sartharion, heigan or various encounters containing adds I love having more leeway so I got more time left concentrating on other stuff.

I will check out on the 8% enchant however as we recently got a raiding elemental shaman whos Totem of Wrath provides the same +3% crit effect on *all* mobs in range if I remeber correctly.
Without HotC 6 talent points to get 7% movement speed and 7 stamina could seem overrated :P

Btw: mobs that disarm are the skeletal smiths in naxx military wing.
Btw2: I'm missing that exorcism-like change for holy wrath ;/
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Postby Galannor » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:06 pm

Backwards is where I love PoJ the most, making kite-tanking easier in certain cases (might loose some aggro from loss of point-blank abilities, put you can temporaily avoid a few hits in dire need with a confortable threat lead).

Helps a lot with repositionning in some cases too. I find it underestimated as a utility bonus. Not game-breaking, but certainly useful.
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Postby Dokidoki » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:35 pm

I agree that it's a very personal decision, call me terrible but I do have difficulties in which PoJ has saved my bacon.

I fail the jump every time without it on thaddius, I get tagged on anubrekhan, and I have a hell of a time tanking whelps/fire adds without it.

I'm not using it now, but I'm thinking of dropping SotP for it. Plus I'd be getting imp might too, or I might get 2/2 imp judge since I'll be doing a lot more OTing now :s
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Postby elson » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:20 pm

Going to agree here that Poj is situationally useful, and by no means a "required" talent.

Specifically on malygos my guild used the strat where I had to kite the damn dragon all around the room to avoid him eating sparks. (our dk wasn't there for our first kill). I did this without PoJ, and the only issue we ever had with the fight was with p3 and people learning to move their drakes.

I do use tuskarr's vitality, as I would find it difficult in that same situation without SOME sort of movement increase, but it's still not required even when your moving that boat of a dragon around.

With us having a constant ret presence in our raids, and me very much disagreeing that AD is not worth the points (when your 41k+ raid buffed Ad kicks in at about 15k which prevented at least one death in p1 while learning the fight), I just can't see the point in getting the talents when my reaction speed and tuskarr's vitality is enough to get the job done.

I just don't have a reason to spec into PoJ.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:23 pm

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Postby Threatco » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:52 pm

Make PoJ unlimited and I would put all my talents in there, and walk around with +100s of % speed. Movement speed > Survivability any day.
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Postby mazater » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:09 am

I don't use PoJ, because I just don't need the movement increasing buff.

If you feel like needing the movement increase, go ahead and pick it, nothing wrong with it.
Nor is there anything wrong with skipping PoJ, I wouldn't consider it as a mandatory talent for tanking, just an extra funnage.

Also, comparing apples and oranges doesn't end well.
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Postby SellassieTanks » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:22 pm

Personally I LOVE PoJ, but people need to keep shit in perspective. There is a time and place for ANY combo of talents beyond the cookie-cutter. I myself enjoy "relaxing" :wink: before and during my playing, so that PoJ just makes up for my loss of reaction time while I'm running from the mob I'm tanking to the mob b-lining for the mage who has for some reason positioned themselves snuggly between me and the incoming pat.
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Postby Eanin » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:08 am

I'm personally a fan of PoJ. We usually have a ret pally and usually have an unholy DK, but not always. Movement is a big part of being a tank. It's not quantifiable like threat is, but it helps. Even little things like moving around Thaddius and so forth are helped by this talent.

It's really about flavour. How much running around do you find you do?

I'm personally a huge fan of anything that makes me move faster. My hunter has speed on his boots, too.
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