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How to Spec Protection: A Talent Guide (3.0-3.1)

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Postby knaughty » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:41 pm

Conaan! wrote:well, the reason i went 1/2 imp might is because at points we dont have warrior (druid OT for 10 mans) and a holy pally that specced DG to see how it did, so i did might buffing because i might as well

Congrats, you have a really good spec for you and your specific raid make-up. :D

BUT! the generic problem with a lot of these threads is that you get the skilled, experienced tankadins doing some slightly weird spec that suits their exact 10-man with odd makeup. And then you get the noobs who go:

I spec prot now, KK? I get plate drops, KTHNXBI?

This is why I give generic "Advice for new people".

To use an example: In TBC, I used to use 40/21 occasionally for some fights. Some people *cough*Worldie*cough* used it for everything. But I would never have recommended it or even mentioned it to a new pally tank. 0/49/12 or whatever it was is what you tell them about.

I'm very much a fan of telling new people "0/58/6, go stick you last 7 points somewhere non-controversial like DG+SotP".
Conaan! wrote:2/2 judgement is nice for soloing or abusing shor bug, but past that and low mana situations (loatheb, possibility) its not too useful

I'd be tempted to take if for Sarth3D adds/whelps or Naxx-25 trash, if I was PoJ specced. I don't use 969 for either, and esp. for S+3, you can never have enough Judgement CDs. 2nd taunt will be lovely.
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Postby Conaan! » Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:19 pm

Levantine wrote:
Conaan! wrote:
Levantine wrote:
Garath.Gorefiend wrote:If you judge Wisdom or Light, the dps drops.


Please to be explain this?


http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=20332

nowai

hes saying that the dps increase from the talent is wasted because it doesnt work with a backup seal


Please to be explain this.

He's saying that if you judge anything except JUSTICE your dps decreases.

oops i misread that

ill go back to my corner now

Knaughty wrote:
Conaan! wrote:well, the reason i went 1/2 imp might is because at points we dont have warrior (druid OT for 10 mans) and a holy pally that specced DG to see how it did, so i did might buffing because i might as well

Congrats, you have a really good spec for you and your specific raid make-up. :D

BUT! the generic problem with a lot of these threads is that you get the skilled, experienced tankadins doing some slightly weird spec that suits their exact 10-man with odd makeup. And then you get the noobs who go:

I spec prot now, KK? I get plate drops, KTHNXBI?

This is why I give generic "Advice for new people".

To use an example: In TBC, I used to use 40/21 occasionally for some fights. Some people *cough*Worldie*cough* used it for everything. But I would never have recommended it or even mentioned it to a new pally tank. 0/49/12 or whatever it was is what you tell them about.

I'm very much a fan of telling new people "0/58/6, go stick you last 7 points somewhere non-controversial like DG+SotP".
Conaan! wrote:2/2 judgement is nice for soloing or abusing shor bug, but past that and low mana situations (loatheb, possibility) its not too useful

I'd be tempted to take if for Sarth3D adds/whelps or Naxx-25 trash, if I was PoJ specced. I don't use 969 for either, and esp. for S+3, you can never have enough Judgement CDs. 2nd taunt will be lovely.


2/2 imp judge is still slightly near as situational as imp might, since most "new" tankadins will follow 969 to the dot if they arent lazy

then again, i dont know the new tankadins of today, i only know the people who braved leveling a paladin in bc
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Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:01 pm

Hmm, maybe I should explain my reasoning a bit more...

SotP is a flat increase to the weakest potion of our dps now..

Most of our dps comes from ShoR, HotR, and Melee.

Seals and judgements are very low on the damage list...just look at a recount breakout of your damage after a raid run...

Now, if you compare the damage between a geared paladin and one who is still working on gear, you will see that Seals and Judgements make up a more significant percent of their total damage.

This is because as gear improves, BV, Str, weapon dps all go up much more markedly than seal and judgment damage do.

The neat thing is that almost all paladin dps benefits from crit. So, as the non-seal portion of your damage increases, crit becomes more and more beneficial to the point where it outweighs the benefit of SotP.

The initital SotP calculations and the proof that paladins benefited more from it than from other dps talents were done with a fairly static picture of gear.

The more dynamic model I have been running shows that at certain points...Nax 25 gear level, you are probably damn close to on par between the two talents.

The higher your BV and Str are, the more your benefit from crit climbs.

As Tier 8 gear comes out, my suspicion is that conviction will simply be the better dps choice.
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Postby Harblz » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:53 am

Pretty sure I've read in the notes that SotP is being changed to all damaging judgements and seals.

And personally, I always buff myself with sanctuary, regardless of having kings in the raid or not. Even without the mana return, my fuzzy math looks something like..

4500 damage on an average hit, every say, 5 seconds. That 3% comes out to about 6480 damage I won't take during the duration of a 4 minute fight.

Kings will be giving me about 54bv, 12 agi (something like .34% dodge), and 1999hp.

Hardly seems worth the trade. But by all means correct me if I'm wrong (because I probably am, haha)
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:02 am

Harblz wrote:Pretty sure I've read in the notes that SotP is being changed to all damaging judgements and seals.

And personally, I always buff myself with sanctuary, regardless of having kings in the raid or not. Even without the mana return, my fuzzy math looks something like..

4500 damage on an average hit, every say, 5 seconds. That 3% comes out to about 6480 damage I won't take during the duration of a 4 minute fight.

Kings will be giving me about 54bv, 12 agi (something like .34% dodge), and 1999hp.

Hardly seems worth the trade. But by all means correct me if I'm wrong (because I probably am, haha)


It's more a matter of how you look at the numbers. One might argue that taking 3% less damage rarely kills a tank, but having an extra 1999 HP would. It also gives those other benefits, too.
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Postby Harblz » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:08 am

Yea, personally, I'm a threat whore, and never find myself dipping below 5k at the lowest. Having the extra mana restore lets me keep a 969 going without having to worry as much about mana. Some fights my avoidance just wrecks my attunement mana.

Though the SotP has me worried about my other pallies (always at least 1 ret with kings) will be speccing out of it, heh. As it is, I rarely have to choose between the two buffs.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:13 am

Harblz wrote:Pretty sure I've read in the notes that SotP is being changed to all damaging judgements and seals.

And personally, I always buff myself with sanctuary, regardless of having kings in the raid or not. Even without the mana return, my fuzzy math looks something like..

4500 damage on an average hit, every say, 5 seconds. That 3% comes out to about 6480 damage I won't take during the duration of a 4 minute fight.

Kings will be giving me about 54bv, 12 agi (something like .34% dodge), and 1999hp.

Hardly seems worth the trade. But by all means correct me if I'm wrong (because I probably am, haha)


The key is that that damage reduction happens over the the duration of the fight. Rarely does a tank end up dying because the long term healing load was too much and the healers went oom. Far more common is a tank dying to a large chunk of damage in a short window (commonly called a "spike"). If you're at say 32k HP, that 2k HP boost is a 6.25% increase in the amount of spike damage you can survive, over twice as much as the 3% survivability boost you get from BoSanc. All the other benefits of Kings are just icing on the cake.

In any fight where there's a risk of tank death, Kings should be prioritized over Sanc. Sanc should only be prioritized over Kings if you're taking so little damage that going OOM is a major concern (and hence by definition you're not at all worried about dying).
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Postby Harblz » Mon Jan 05, 2009 11:22 am

Very true. Fights like patchwerk, I'd take kings over sanc. But pretty much every other boss, I'm not too worried about dying. Currently about 27.5k hp, and 2% over block cap unbuffed.
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So much controversy

Postby stroggylos » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:05 am

Thank god i haven't read all of that threads since the release of wotlk cause i would have a dizzy head after 5 mins :P Imo for new pala tanks aiming at normal (y some peo have to run that to get experience and gear) heroix-10 man i would go for the cookie cutter modus suggests.
I am using http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZsxVA0uMteIRGoeo atm , never changed it after the expansion release and after reading the threads above i will be looking forward for some corrections.
Since abusing our slam creates tons of threat i prefer not to use 9696 and rather drop hands-cleanse-ss here and there. However i will be needing thw 9696 rotation soon ... i remember reading a post in the forum (even with a 9696 macro in it) cannot find it though could someone make a link plz?
Why i posted in this thread ? Well in 25 mans i prefer loldps instead of lolhealing when i am not needed to tank so i'd like to ask some things concerning talents i'd like to drop without loosing survivability or much aoe threat (won't loose single target threat that's for sure) :
1. Is JoJ THAT usefull that noone considers dropping that to get conviction ? Plz name some raid-bosses (no heroic ones plz) that it works on
2. Touched by the Light : SP does not affect HoR and SoR and only PARTIALLY seals/judges/holyshield/conc. In means of threat/damage is it better than templar?
3. Since using the BV libram is it better to get full improved judges and break 9696 rotation?

With that said what u have to comment on that built http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xqAbuMtehRhovo0x0G OR http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xqAbuMteGRhovo0x0h or well crusade instead of sanctified seals

(again no 5-man content and running raids with pala with bok and HoTCr) ...
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Postby Lavnihs » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:36 pm

1. Every single one of them that melees. So, all of them are affected by JotJ. It works out to about 4% avoidance I think is what Dorvan came up with. Would you drop 4 pts out of Anticipation for Conviction? Same trade. Dropping JoTJ makes sense for Shade of Aran.

2. I would assume that an addtional 600 SP (assuming 2k stamina) would add more damage than a 30% increase of base values, but both are pretty important talents.

3. You will lose damage due to not constantly being on cooldown / maximizing your GCD useage. How are you going to fit multiple ShoRs with a 6 sec cooldown into a 5 second buff window? If you're doing this purely because of the ShoR bug and spamming both ranks, the theorycraft is kind of pointless. Any given Tuesday it's going away, and all of this will be irrelevant and wasted $$ respeccing.

While I haven't tested it, I would venture to guess that 2/2 imp judge gives you more dps with 5/5 SoTP than it does with 5/5 Conviction. I need to do some math to back that up.

The crit benefits of deeper ret do not outweigh the avoidance and threat you are losing from the prot tree.

If you don't want to lose AoE threat, tossing your spell damage is going to kill your consecrate. If you have more than 3 mobs, HoTR isn't going to hit them all, and inevitably you're going to have a HoTR miss / deflect and there goes a free mob. Templar is a free 3% mitigation. i bet you wouldn't think twice about going 3/3 RF, ignore the damage portion of SoTT, if you won't give up the mitigation from RF why give it up from SoTT?

You can do without JoTJ if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt you will always have a warrior TC'ing your target and never forgetting, or a druid with fully talented infected wounds. Other than that, you are losing 4% avoidance.

Realistically what are we talking about for a damage improvement? What do you realistically hope to achieve? If you beat your bottom DPS, he needs to be kicked from the raid. Yes I agree you will gain damage over a "conventional" prot build with what you are proposing. If you are sustaining 1500 dps now while OTing, how much do you think the 3% from Crusade is going to help?

If you are really after damage, and want to gut key talents from the prot tree, keep your prot gear and just respec ret. Go 0/27/44 or something like that and in fights where you aren't needed to tank adds, just put on ret gear. That will improve your DPS quite a bit. Other than AD and holy shield, you essentially have everything you did in BC as a prot pally.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:45 am

You might want to bump TbtL to Recommended.

I ran the numbers, it's worth very nearly 3% TPS per point (full 25-man gear/buffs is over 8% TPS boost at 3/3).

Biggest TPS talent. Healy thing is semi-useless gravy.
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Postby Jonesy » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:12 am

Can you show your numbers? I make it around half that.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:15 am

Jonesy wrote:Can you show your numbers? I make it around half that.


Rawr latest, gearset linked in my advanced FAQ sticky, full raid buffs.

Turning on TbtL takes threat from 5,143 TPS to 5,567.

424/5143 = 8.24%
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Postby Jonesy » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:14 am

Yeah, I hate your gearset for any discussions involving threat, I think we covered this already. :)

I guess that's why our numbers differ, I'll try and get my spreadsheet shippable so we can have a sensible discussion about threat.
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So

Postby stroggylos » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:31 am

1.Wowa , since it works on everything i wouldn't drop JotJ for threat even if it were for me to ot :)
2. Well Crusade 3/3 gives 3% more damage to everything +3% to most boss encounters which ends up to 6% of more overalldamage adding to threat, so loosing 300-400 spelldamage may worth it (will turn TbtL on, not full it though - will do the maths later cause i am at work)
3. in a not hardcore tank-gear and with a 0/54/17 (TbtL 1/3 ,Conv 5/5 and Crusade 2/3) i was at about 2.5k+ dps in single target combat ,our other prot pala sitting on 1.9k doing less cleanses etc (don't think it really worths all that brainstorm though)..tbh my purpose is to top our feral druid so that i can avoid collecting holy gear :P
4. When in a 25 man + OT : there is goin to be another pala judging HoTC so u will find benediction extremely usefull ...
5.PoJ also increases melee attack speed ? if not i cannot understand why we discuss it so much :P
6. For theorycrafters-math lovers : SotP 5/5+ TbtL 3/3 creates more damage than TbtL 1/3 and Crusader 2/3 against a demon ? (tank 27k hp , 1200bv, 1k strength ,SoV used ...think that is enough givens :twisted: )

To conclude my post i'd like to say sorry to all of u for messing with this thread instead of creating another one, didn't expect it to get that far :wink:
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