Kings...its not prot's responsibility

How to get started.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, lythac

Postby Invisusira » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:49 pm

qq thread is a qq thread
User avatar
Invisusira
Moderator
 
Posts: 9021
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: alt-tabbed

Postby Thels » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:39 am

Sigh, you're not putting in anything new!

IF you can 100% rely on a Ret pally with the Kings blessing, then YES, you can skip Kings yourself. Nobody will disagree about you with that.

If you cannot, then take kings yourself. In your case, you deem you can force a Ret pally with Kings to be there every raid. In that case, of course, it's the best solution to have the Ret pally take kings, freeing you up with 5 more talent points.

Your point is not "How viable is Kings" but "Can I guarantee that there'll be a Ret paladin there every raid?" It's a moot point.
ImageImage
User avatar
Thels
 
Posts: 1277
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 7:30 am
Location: The Netherlands

Postby Markoh » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:10 am

Also it was proven a long time ago that you only need 3 points in reckoning if you are that in love with it. The optimal uptime for points spent is 3/5 reckoning.

The reason reckoning is useless is the tanking seal is now seal of corruption (vengence for allies I think). Getting a full 5 stack takes no time and after that all reckoning is adding is white damage which does not get any effect from righteous fury. I could go into the full argument but theirs no point you are obviously not gonna change your mind based on the tone of the post.
User avatar
Markoh
 
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:37 pm

Postby majiben » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:22 am

Markoh wrote:Also it was proven a long time ago that you only need 3 points in reckoning if you are that in love with it. The optimal uptime for points spent is 3/5 reckoning.
Optimal in the sense of talent point to benifit ratio. 4 points was a close tie. More points provide more benifit but less than the previous point past 3 points.

Markoh wrote:white damage which does not get any effect from righteous fury.
White damage does benifit from RF. It gets a 1.43 threat modifier as opposed to holy damage's 1.9*1.43. That said, reckoning is still lack luster.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Postby guillex » Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:09 am

It's been said before, and it will be said again.

Reckoning is a leveling talent.

That's it. That's all.
Póg mo thóin
Image
User avatar
guillex
Moderator
 
Posts: 7490
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Re: Kings...its not prot's responsibility

Postby Kellel » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:41 pm

Twilightstar wrote:Kings...its not prot's responsibility


Why don't you cut to the chase here and talk about what's really bothering you. It sounds as though you are more concerned with a raids pre-judgement of your competency than you are about the actual mechanics.

My advice, If this is a personal issue for you, let your tanking act as an argument for whether or not you need Kings in your spec. There is little point for you to discuss the merits of prot pally talent tree with someone that has never rolled one.

If this is a guild issue do what your guild/raid leader tells you to. They are in charge and there is nothing worse than insubordinate raid members, especially cranky-tanks. You can give them your opinion on the matter, but in the end it's their call. What's the quote? "you might not care about wasting your $14.95 a month, but when we wipe ... your wasting our $358.80" <-- lol .. that!
Image
Kellel
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:28 am

Re: Kings...its not prot's responsibility

Postby Kilthanas » Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm

Twilightstar wrote:while prot pally can get SotP, a roughly 1-2% TOTAL DMG increase


I call BS. The vast majority of my dmg is conscecrate, shield slam and hammer. Seals and judgements are an extremely low pct% of my dps to begin with so increasing them barely makes a difference IMO.
Kilthanas
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:18 am

Postby Twilightstar » Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:16 pm

Ok lets say that as prot pally, we will be judging judgement of the just most of the times on boss for that extra avoidence (20%attack speed reduce anyone?), so skipping kings and picking up Heart of the Crusader talent gives us two benefit for 1 judgement, while ret pally can judge light because JotL is based on ap and ret provides more benefit by judging JotL, see where I am going with this?

BoK is nice to have, i agree. However I am sick and tired of people,even some on this forum going like 'there is no better alternative, get kings", or coming up with arguments like"that ret dont want to spec kings, so its up to prot to spec it". The 1st statement is matter of perference, the 2nd one is just lame...why would you bring a ret to a raid that refuse to provide kings???

Im not trying to argue here, just trying to say that this bok thing can stop now please, and its quite clear in my original post stating optimal performance and stuff.
Twilightstar
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:07 pm

Postby guillex » Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:27 pm

Twilightstar wrote:Ok lets say that as prot pally, we will be judging judgement of the just most of the times on boss for that extra avoidence (20%attack speed reduce anyone?), so skipping kings and picking up Heart of the Crusader talent gives us two benefit for 1 judgement, while ret pally can judge light because JotL is based on ap and ret provides more benefit by judging JotL, see where I am going with this?

BoK is nice to have, i agree. However I am sick and tired of people,even some on this forum going like 'there is no better alternative, get kings", or coming up with arguments like"that ret dont want to spec kings, so its up to prot to spec it". The 1st statement is matter of perference, the 2nd one is just lame...why would you bring a ret to a raid that refuse to provide kings???

Im not trying to argue here, just trying to say that this bok thing can stop now please, and its quite clear in my original post stating optimal performance and stuff.


The one problem with your example is ret judging Light.

Because of the current JoL mechanic, all healing done by JoL is credited to the caster. This means that, if there is any raid damage, healing threat generated by that healing will be credited to the ret pally.

This is not a good thing, at all. I know it's going back, but imagine the healing threat on an AoE intensive fight like Najentus.

Ret pallies are probably going to spec into HotC, which AFAIK, doesn't stack. So that's wasted talent points if you're regularly running with a ret pally.

This whole argument boils down to the following:

If you run with a ret pally, they don't lose much by getting kings. If you're not running with a ret pally on a regular basis, then you should spec into kings. NOTHING can be assumed, but guess what? That's what everyone is doing with this argument.

The horse is dead. It's been beaten into the ground. Assuming that there is always going to be ret pally or not in every single raid setup is what's silly here, not the arguments for or against.

Just let it go and stop trying to get everyone to spec one certain way. Everyone is going to be in different situations (These last two sentences are said in general to everyone, NOT JUST YOU TWILIGHTSTAR.)
Póg mo thóin
Image
User avatar
guillex
Moderator
 
Posts: 7490
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:32 pm
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Postby Veilan » Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:46 pm

I've went without BoK, but I did start with two friends as a paladin trio. Pre-WotlK, the holy had it, now, the ret is going to have it.

For my personal choice, I don't think 5 points are worth it for a talent that I'd only use on myself in boss fights.
The biggest argument for taking it imho is that it just needs to be present in a raid, or you're really missing out. This may leave the prot in the uncomfortable situation that he brings BoK for everyone else at cost of not only 5 talent points, but also one of his two favourite blessings.

So, I can certainly understand both camps, and would argue it really depends on whom you are regularly grouping with.

Cheers,
Ythalaine - Die Aldor EU
Image
User avatar
Veilan
 
Posts: 525
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:45 am

Postby theothersteve7 » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:43 pm

I don't think of the talent points as that big of a sacrifice. What the big sacrifice is, is that you can only apply one blessing to yourself. So you have to choose between Sanc and Kings, possibly the two most important buffs to a tankadin.
Moo.
theothersteve7
 
Posts: 402
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:45 am

Postby Thornir » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:13 am

Thels wrote:Your point is not "How viable is Kings" but "Can I guarantee that there'll be a Ret paladin there every raid?"


really, its about whether ANY other pally is in your group. My guild is made of hunters, holy priests, and warriors, so I'm not really expecting anyone (lest Zaine is on) to buff me Kings for bosses, so i specced Kings.
Many fall, but one remains. - The Stranger
Men are but flesh and blood. They know their doom, but not the hour. - Patrick Stewart
Thornir

*Now with 100% more beef!*
User avatar
Thornir
 
Posts: 621
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:25 pm
Location: In some sewers beneath a prison somewhere

Postby majiben » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:24 pm

Making a holy paladin get it is a large decrease in their healing capabilities, 1-4%. decrease in tanking capabilities to get it, <.5%.
Amirya wrote:some bizarre lovechild of Hawking, Einstein, and Theck
User avatar
majiben
Moderator
 
Posts: 6999
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:37 pm
Location: Retired

Postby Lore » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:32 pm

You don't lose anything particularly huge to pick up Kings. I have it in my prot build at the moment, I haven't missed those talent points at all. I even had extra points to put into Imp HoJ.

If you're running with a Ret pally, anything past 6 points in Ret is a waste, and you've got extra points to spend on Kings.

If you're not running with a Ret pally, you don't have Kings, and should take it.

EDIT: In fact, having Kings with a Ret Pally in the raid is probably a good thing, because it lets them put Imp BoM out.
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Postby Selinaria » Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:34 pm

I currently don't have it because I have a reliable ret pally to run with who does.

If that was not the case, I would have it 100% of the time even if I personally got little benefit outta it in any scenario besides progression bosses.

/shrug. It is too good to not have unless you are 110% sure someone else will have it. And we really do not sacrifice much to get it.
Selinaria was suddenly surrounded by a gang of sharks, a cracked bat as her only protection!
Image
User avatar
Selinaria
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:55 am
Location: Burlington,Ontario, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Basic Training & Talents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest