Seals of the Pure vs Conviction

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Postby Tellysavalas » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:22 pm

Drobent wrote:If you're going to do PVP, spec for pvp.
If you're going to do PVE, spec for pve.
If you remain in the way they'll knock you down.


Conviction was not justified in my post for it's PVP merit, that was just an added bonus, which is how I noted it. The point I made was that I rarely use our tanking Seals (SoC/SoR) and instead mostly use Wisdom for Mana/Endurance because the current threat mechanics make it so easy to build threat and lead threat without even putting forth any effort so why spend 5 talent points to improve your ability to do something which is already effortless? Thanks for your asinine generalizations though, brings a lot to the discussion.
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Postby majiben » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:13 pm

Alexlifeson wrote:
Knaughty wrote:Seals of the Pure is always more TPS, usually more DPS and less healing.

Thus: SotP > Conviction.


Thanks for your comments. Personally, I think that TPS will not be an issue in either case but I would try Seals of the Pure to experience it myself. Why does Seals of the Pure have more TPS? Why would it require less healing?
It doesn't require more healing. The crit talent enchances your healing while SotP does not.
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Postby Drobent » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:30 pm

Majiben wrote:It doesn't require more healing. The crit talent enchances your healing while SotP does not.


Why would a Tank Heal??
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Postby Andryana » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:39 am

Tellysavalas wrote:I think I'm going to try Kynes build tonight. I went with something quite similar for leveling 70-75 and then switched to ret from 75-79 now I'm back to Prot and about to hit 80 and I'm wishing I had my old build.

Right now I'm 5/xx/9 with SoTP and crusader but I think I'd much rather go back to Conviction and drop SoTP because I use SoW/JoW 90% of the time and only use SoC on bosses and even then it's excessive because I routinely have a threat lead in the 10s of thousands over my DPS, and I usually finish with a threat lead of 50-100k.

Conviction would give all of my other abilities a nice damage/threat buff and would help my offhealing when I PVP (until dual spec comes in). Seeing as how I'm not currently using SoR/SoC hardly ever, it seems pointless to be spending 5 points on it. SoW/JoW gives me endless mana to spam my threat rotation and chain pull an instance from start to finish. Conviction will make things more fun (SHIELD SLAM CRITS) and make PVP more bearable when I throw on the ol' holy gear.

Most of the purists will probably read this post and think I'm an idiot for not 100% min-maxing and taking SoTP, but honestly, in the current build, compared to Pre-3.0, keeping threat (single, multi or infinite targets) is so extraordinary easy right now I think a chimpanzee could face roll six buttons on my keyboard and tank just about any instance.

Me having 5% crit and my DPS having 3% crit (hardly ever group with rets) and me having unlimited mana = much faster instance clears. Which is all good in my book.


I agree with this, SoTP might be better for threat, but meh threat is so high right now that is more fun to have some more crit for some crazy shield slams and HoTR in my mind.

I like your build Kynes.. could even drop that point in benediction for one more 1% crit from Sanctified Seals.
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Postby Veilan » Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:23 am

If you know what to engage and how to play smart, a PvE-specced and equipped protection paladin still can be a formidable force on any battlefield. Especially with enemy players not used to seeing a tank in PvP - hello rogues stupid enough to attack :). I fondly remember an AB where I held 8 players at the blacksmith for two minutes while the rest took all the bases around in the meantime.

Anyway, I went with conviction, to grab the extra 3/6 % threat and damage from crusade.

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talen ... =Ythalaine

If it's worth it in one-handed spec, it's worth it in crusade. As for seals of the pure... I begrudge not being able to dump the 5 points from reckoning into it. If that were possible, I'd be 100% content.
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Postby Kynes » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:18 am

Andryana wrote:I like your build Kynes.. could even drop that point in benediction for one more 1% crit from Sanctified Seals.


It's the last (fifth) point to GET to Conviction over 1/2 Imp Might, which is my only other option.

And thanks for the confidence in my build, I'm liking it a lot. It makes dailies and quests a bit faster and huge Holy Light crits a little more common when topping off.
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Postby Kynes » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:22 am

Drobent wrote:
Majiben wrote:It doesn't require more healing. The crit talent enchances your healing while SotP does not.


Why would a Tank Heal??


10 man 4hmen is an example. Or if you're off tanking and your mob dies, FoL is pretty good on mana and would help a little bit if the need was there. Not to mention phase shifts in certain fights or soloing.

You're right, a tank should never heal while tanking. But there are occasions where you can squeeze a heal in here or there.
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Postby majiben » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:41 am

Dropping AD is a big no no. As is not getting 1/2 imp judgement. I assume you are running with a ret paladin 100% of your raid time and that's why you didn't pick up HotC or Kings. If you don't run with a ret pally you should definetly get those talents. If I was absolutely set on getting crusader I would go with a 0/54/17 build. The major issue is that crusader is too deep in ret. We have to sacrafice too much to get it. Also it's only as good as 1hs on some mobs, on the others it is half as effective.
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Postby Kilthanas » Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:33 pm

I'm 3/5 conviction atm. To me its no contest. I suspect its a TPS boost (which I don't particularly need) but more importantly its a DPS boost. I got several 6.7K shield slam crits in Naxx this week. I see hammer crits of over 2K and perhaps 3K (this with a lvl 187 blue sword).

In heroics I often run SoW in order to not have to drink and be able to chain pull and consecrate and hammer as much as possible and in that situation the crit is much preferable.

I'll have to do another look at recount in Naxx when I'm running SoV (corruption) but last time I looked in Naxx seals and judgments were such a miniscule amount of my dps that helping them does very little in comparison to getting higher chance at 7K shield slams.

If your gear sucks bad then Seals of the Pure is probably pretty huge for you. But once you get some nice block value and a nice tanking weapon I really don't think it is any contest, crit all the way.
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Postby Briana » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:37 pm

I'm using the 5 points in Conviction as well and I'm really enjoying the results.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/cla ... 0000000000

With the nerfs to judgments in general, IF there is a tps difference from conviction to seals of the pure it's basically insignificant.
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Postby Shields » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:57 am

Am I the only one that thinks neither of these talents belong in a prot paladin build?

I don't think I would accept a prot paladin specced like that on my raid team.
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Postby Kynes » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:14 am

Shields wrote:Am I the only one that thinks neither of these talents belong in a prot paladin build?

I don't think I would accept a prot paladin specced like that on my raid team.


Well, I can't tell you how to build a raid team. But instead, I'd like to understand what you ARE looking for? There are (arguably) 8ish free points to throw around in prot builds and I don't understand where else it makes sense to put them?
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:15 am

Shields wrote:Am I the only one that thinks neither of these talents belong in a prot paladin build?

I don't think I would accept a prot paladin specced like that on my raid team.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=szZaxVA0uMteIRGots00b :p
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Postby Kynes » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:21 am

Snake-Aes wrote:
Shields wrote:Am I the only one that thinks neither of these talents belong in a prot paladin build?

I don't think I would accept a prot paladin specced like that on my raid team.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=szZaxVA0uMteIRGots00b :p


Curious, why not 2/2 might? Seems those last 2 points are floaters im(humble)o.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:30 am

Kynes wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:
Shields wrote:Am I the only one that thinks neither of these talents belong in a prot paladin build?

I don't think I would accept a prot paladin specced like that on my raid team.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=szZaxVA0uMteIRGots00b :p


Curious, why not 2/2 might? Seems those last 2 points are floaters im(humble)o.
Might as well do that. I made it having in mind the dump of a single point for a 11-point skill, but i'm just delusioned nowadays.
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