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Seals of the Pure vs Conviction

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Seals of the Pure vs Conviction

Postby Alexlifeson » Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:39 pm

Based on what I am reading on this forum Seals of the Pure seems to be overwhelmingly popular over Conviction. I am using those 5 points in conviction right now. My thinking on Conviction is that it effects all of my damage, but I have not tried using Seals of the Pure. Any thoughts on these two options?
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:10 pm

Seals of the Pure is always more TPS, usually more DPS and less healing.

Thus: SotP > Conviction.
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Postby tbolt » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:59 pm

I'm using conviction right now and the extra crit is great. SotP seems kinda crappy at the moment especially since I barely use SoV in heroics/dungeons anymore. SoW keeps the spamsecrate going and I finish pulls with a full mana bar, no threat troubles so far either. So I'm keeping conviction, might switch it when I start raiding but we'll see, like you said conviction affects all damage as opposed to one seal/judge which is pretty weak at the moment.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:44 pm

Tbolt wrote:like you said conviction affects all damage as opposed to one seal/judge which is pretty weak at the moment.

Well, Conviction isn't ALL damage, I'm exaggerating. Consecrate doesn't crit for example.

Regardless, SotP is more DPS/TPS than Conviction. If you're having mana issues using SoV ( :shock: ) then I'd Bless Sanc and use Plea on CD.

Using Plea & Sanc aura (for trash - Kings for bosses) I have to drink once or twice per instance, other than that I can chain pull based on healer mana.

If stuff is dying too fast for SoV to be great, SoR. Full mana bar is Full - what's SoW for?
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Postby tbolt » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:19 pm

Knaughty wrote:
Tbolt wrote:like you said conviction affects all damage as opposed to one seal/judge which is pretty weak at the moment.

Well, Conviction isn't ALL damage, I'm exaggerating. Consecrate doesn't crit for example.

Regardless, SotP is more DPS/TPS than Conviction. If you're having mana issues using SoV ( :shock: ) then I'd Bless Sanc and use Plea on CD.

Using Plea & Sanc aura (for trash - Kings for bosses) I have to drink once or twice per instance, other than that I can chain pull based on healer mana.

If stuff is dying too fast for SoV to be great, SoR. Full mana bar is Full - what's SoW for?


I'm pretty happy with conviction right now and am not entirely convinced that it's less useful than sotp. And I didn't say I was having mana issues, I said that I can consecrate regularly using SoW. I use SoV when I feel it's needed but like I said threat is not an issue and I do more than enough damage as a tank in groups. Using SoV with BoSanc and using DP on every cooldown you still can't consecrate all the time, with SoW you can and you never have to drink.
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Postby majiben » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:45 pm

Conviction requires 9 (6 if you were planning on getting HotC anyways) points essentially for a weaker boost. It would be fine if we weren't required to dreg up points for it. Personally I'm going 2/60/9. If we had a reliable ret I would go 5/60/6.

Also seals, holy shield and reflective auras don't crit in addittion to consecrate not critting.
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Postby tbolt » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:26 am

Majiben wrote:Conviction requires 9 (6 if you were planning on getting HotC anyways) points essentially for a weaker boost. It would be fine if we weren't required to dreg up points for it. Personally I'm going 2/60/9. If we had a reliable ret I would go 5/60/6.

Also seals, holy shield and reflective auras don't crit in addittion to consecrate not critting.


Ah I see, but you're picking up kings and DG which is taking up 7 points. In my build I didn't pick those up, in which case the combination of HotC and Conviction is giving me 8% extra crit. And while HS, auras, and consecrate don't crit...Judges, ShoR, HotR, exorcism, melee and I believe holy wrath (not sure about this one actually) do. To me 8% crit on our highest TPS/DPS moves is well worth the 15% increase in the damage of our weakest ability. Maybe you have a gear setup that makes your seals and judges do more damage than mine but according to my recount they are consistently lower damage than the others.

I also picked up 3/5 reckoning to progress up the prot tree and I see my melee attacks crit all the time, ShoR and HotR also seem to crit quite often which more than make up for the loss of SotP and as I said before even the use of SoV.

Like I said before though, this is from dungeons/heroic experience only so far, so when my guild gets into naxx I may adapt my build to accommodate any changes that I feel are necessary.
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Postby Kuridan » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:37 am

Majiben wrote:Also seals, holy shield and reflective auras don't crit in addittion to consecrate not critting.


This statement is not completly accurate. I know 100% that SoV can crit on it's ticks.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:37 am

Tbolt wrote:
Majiben wrote:Conviction requires 9 (6 if you were planning on getting HotC anyways) points essentially for a weaker boost. It would be fine if we weren't required to dreg up points for it. Personally I'm going 2/60/9. If we had a reliable ret I would go 5/60/6.

Also seals, holy shield and reflective auras don't crit in addittion to consecrate not critting.


Ah I see, but you're picking up kings and DG which is taking up 7 points. In my build I didn't pick those up, in which case the combination of HotC and Conviction is giving me 8% extra crit. And while HS, auras, and consecrate don't crit...Judges, ShoR, HotR, exorcism, melee and I believe holy wrath (not sure about this one actually) do. To me 8% crit on our highest TPS/DPS moves is well worth the 15% increase in the damage of our weakest ability. Maybe you have a gear setup that makes your seals and judges do more damage than mine but according to my recount they are consistently lower damage than the others.

I also picked up 3/5 reckoning to progress up the prot tree and I see my melee attacks crit all the time, ShoR and HotR also seem to crit quite often which more than make up for the loss of SotP and as I said before even the use of SoV.

Like I said before though, this is from dungeons/heroic experience only so far, so when my guild gets into naxx I may adapt my build to accommodate any changes that I feel are necessary.
I suggest you pick up kings and drop reckoning, and shave the other 2 points off somewhere else. Preferably that crit talent you took. 10% more str is fairly close to what that extra crit could give you.
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Postby Drobent » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:57 am

I don't see the point between crittin' and Mana.

For Mana issues get Benediction.

IMO, SoP is a good option because when my mana is getting down overwhelmingly slow (that means tons of mana incoming from BoSanc/Spiritual Attunment/JoW) I cycle SoV and SoR to have 5 ticks of SoV and the extra Aggro of SoR, when the 5-Tick is about to expire SoV, another hit and then SoR again.
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Postby tbolt » Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:26 am

Drobent wrote:I don't see the point between crittin' and Mana.

For Mana issues get Benediction.

IMO, SoP is a good option because when my mana is getting down overwhelmingly slow (that means tons of mana incoming from BoSanc/Spiritual Attunment/JoW) I cycle SoV and SoR to have 5 ticks of SoV and the extra Aggro of SoR, when the 5-Tick is about to expire SoV, another hit and then SoR again.


I wasn't trying to make a link, I was saying that I have plenty of mana and crit plenty. Also I'm pretty sure seal twisting like you're doing is a loss of dps due to the use of gcd, but might wanna search for it on the forums to be sure.

Snake-Aes wrote:I suggest you pick up kings and drop reckoning, and shave the other 2 points off somewhere else. Preferably that crit talent you took. 10% more str is fairly close to what that extra crit could give you.


Why when I'm always using BoSanc? Why would I trade extra crit and added melee damage for a blessing I don't use on myself?
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Postby Alexlifeson » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:03 am

Knaughty wrote:Seals of the Pure is always more TPS, usually more DPS and less healing.

Thus: SotP > Conviction.


Thanks for your comments. Personally, I think that TPS will not be an issue in either case but I would try Seals of the Pure to experience it myself. Why does Seals of the Pure have more TPS? Why would it require less healing?
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Postby Kynes » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:32 am

I've been using this.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVAcuMteIRGots0x

No kings because I run with a ret or holy that has it. I haven't had a need for kings in heroics w/o another paladin either, they're just too easy. And without a ret, especially in 10 mans, Heart of the Crusader is a nice 3% crit.

As for SotP, I thought I read a bunch of theorycraft a few weeks ago that suggested after the nerfs to our seals, Conviction > SotP. They were close as it was before the seal nerf, I imagine SotP is subpar now.

Discuss?
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Postby Tellysavalas » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:37 am

I think I'm going to try Kynes build tonight. I went with something quite similar for leveling 70-75 and then switched to ret from 75-79 now I'm back to Prot and about to hit 80 and I'm wishing I had my old build.

Right now I'm 5/xx/9 with SoTP and crusader but I think I'd much rather go back to Conviction and drop SoTP because I use SoW/JoW 90% of the time and only use SoC on bosses and even then it's excessive because I routinely have a threat lead in the 10s of thousands over my DPS, and I usually finish with a threat lead of 50-100k.

Conviction would give all of my other abilities a nice damage/threat buff and would help my offhealing when I PVP (until dual spec comes in). Seeing as how I'm not currently using SoR/SoC hardly ever, it seems pointless to be spending 5 points on it. SoW/JoW gives me endless mana to spam my threat rotation and chain pull an instance from start to finish. Conviction will make things more fun (SHIELD SLAM CRITS) and make PVP more bearable when I throw on the ol' holy gear.

Most of the purists will probably read this post and think I'm an idiot for not 100% min-maxing and taking SoTP, but honestly, in the current build, compared to Pre-3.0, keeping threat (single, multi or infinite targets) is so extraordinary easy right now I think a chimpanzee could face roll six buttons on my keyboard and tank just about any instance.

Me having 5% crit and my DPS having 3% crit (hardly ever group with rets) and me having unlimited mana = much faster instance clears. Which is all good in my book.
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Postby Drobent » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:11 pm

Tellysavalas wrote:I think I'm going to try Kynes build tonight. I went with something quite similar for leveling 70-75 and then switched to ret from 75-79 now I'm back to Prot and about to hit 80 and I'm wishing I had my old build.

Right now I'm 5/xx/9 with SoTP and crusader but I think I'd much rather go back to Conviction and drop SoTP because I use SoW/JoW 90% of the time and only use SoC on bosses and even then it's excessive because I routinely have a threat lead in the 10s of thousands over my DPS, and I usually finish with a threat lead of 50-100k.

Conviction would give all of my other abilities a nice damage/threat buff and would help my offhealing when I PVP (until dual spec comes in). Seeing as how I'm not currently using SoR/SoC hardly ever, it seems pointless to be spending 5 points on it. SoW/JoW gives me endless mana to spam my threat rotation and chain pull an instance from start to finish. Conviction will make things more fun (SHIELD SLAM CRITS) and make PVP more bearable when I throw on the ol' holy gear.

Most of the purists will probably read this post and think I'm an idiot for not 100% min-maxing and taking SoTP, but honestly, in the current build, compared to Pre-3.0, keeping threat (single, multi or infinite targets) is so extraordinary easy right now I think a chimpanzee could face roll six buttons on my keyboard and tank just about any instance.

Me having 5% crit and my DPS having 3% crit (hardly ever group with rets) and me having unlimited mana = much faster instance clears. Which is all good in my book.


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If you're going to do PVE, spec for pve.

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