Eye for an Eye vs. Crusade

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Eye for an Eye vs. Crusade

Postby Veilan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:53 am

Hello folks,

let me jump right in with my first question.

Apparently, I went down the retribution tree for the parry, mana and threat generation: Ythalaine, Die Aldor

My question is, and it really is only about this aspect... at 80, should I go for 2 eye for an eye / 1 crusade, or 3 crusade?

My profession: theorycraft isn't that high, so I'm not entirely sure about the eye for an eye mechanics - it still procs even with crit immunity, if the hit would have been a crit under normal circumstances?

I'm basically wondering whether it's worth it in threat generation, or whether the straightforward crusade (the race limitation hardly matters, does it?) is better to go with.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Last edited by Veilan on Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fenris » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:26 am

You want to work for melee-crit immunity at 80,and mobs spells dont crit

That says how usefull E4E is for pve :wink:
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Postby Veilan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:38 am

Right, regardless, an avoided crit still procs "on crit" effects (just not the plain miss chance from defense, iirc). So I was hoping someone had some more insight into the actual mechanics and comparison there.

But thanks for the info already - I didn't know mob magic couldn't crit :o.
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Postby Fenris » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:44 am

The "avoided crit proc" works only for resilience-negated crits,not for defense ones afaik
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Re: Eye for an Eye vs. Crusade

Postby Janduin » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:25 am

Veilan wrote:Hello folks,

let me jump right in with my first question.

Apparently, I went down the retribution tree for the parry, mana and threat generation: Ythalaine, Die Aldor

My question is, and it really is only about this aspect... at 80, should I go for 2 eye for an eye / 1 crusade, or 3 crusade?

My profession: theorycraft isn't that high, so I'm not entirely sure about the eye for an eye mechanics - it still procs even with crit immunity, if the hit would have been a crit under normal circumstances?

I'm basically wondering whether it's worth it in threat generation, or whether the straightforward crusade (the race limitation hardly matters, does it?) is better to go with.

Thanks for your thoughts,


Certainly Crusade, for all the above reasons. On a broader note, your spec is very unorthodox, which it fine if it floats your boat, but you might want to look into Ardent Defender, Kings, dropping Reck (almost zero benefit while using Vengeance/Corruption), etc. instead of filling the ret tree if you will be main tanking.
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Postby guillex » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:33 am

Here's a direct link to wowwiki for Eye for an Eye. It gives examples, and I think has the answers you're looking for.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Eye_for_an_Eye
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Postby Veilan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:58 pm

Ah, thanks for the useful explanation and link. I was leaning towards crusade, since 3/6% more are nothing to be looked down upon, but it never hurts to check back, especially since I didn't know the eye for an eye mechanics too well. Struck me to be more PvPy too.

Janduin wrote:but you might want to look into Ardent Defender, Kings, dropping Reck (almost zero benefit while using Vengeance/Corruption), etc. instead of filling the ret tree if you will be main tanking.


Luckily I don't need king's - I created this character as part of a paladin trio ;).

I'm probably going to drop reckoning for ardent defender once I hit 80, reckoning is just very useful to quest with currently and just lovely for the leeching effect with your seals / judgments, as I use righteousness, and often enough wisdom (especially since I refuse to undress ;)). I haven't looked at the current scaling, but pre-wotlk I observed righteousness to continously bring higher threat, apart from long boss fights in which vengeance manages to keep 5 stacks, which it often enough doesn't :(. I'll have some testing with that on 80 again, the hammer of the rightous luckily did mitigate the need for flexibility, or chaotic judging of a random mob because some guy in the group decided to shoot him instead of the skull... ;)

Anyway, thanks again folks, I'm very happy with the constructive and insightful replies, and will most likely poke by from time to time! It's a welcome change to the "omg death knight need healz plz" forum inanity that can be observed elsewhere.
Last edited by Veilan on Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BubbaBill » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:06 pm

Veilan wrote:Ah, thanks for the useful explanation and link. I was leaning towards crusade, since 3/6% more are nothing to be looked down upon, but it never hurts to check back, especially since I didn't know the eye for an eye mechanics too well. Struck me to be more PvPy too.

Janduin wrote:but you might want to look into Ardent Defender, Kings, dropping Reck (almost zero benefit while using Vengeance/Corruption), etc. instead of filling the ret tree if you will be main tanking.


Luckily I don't need king's - I created this character as part of a paladin trio ;).

I'm probably going to drop reckoning for ardent defender once I hit 80, reckoning is just very useful to quest with currently and just lovely for the leeching effect with your seals / judgments, as I use righteousness, and often enough wisdom (especially since I refuse to undress ;)). I haven't looked at the current scaling, but pre-wotlk I observed righteousness to continously bring higher threat, apart from long boss fights in which vengeance manages to keep 5 stacks, which it often enough doesn't :(. I'll have some testing with that on 80 again, the hammer of the rightous luckily did mitigate the need for flexibility, or chaotic judging of a random mob because some guy in the group decided to shoot him instead of the skull... ;)

Anyway, thanks again folks, I'm very happy with the constructive and insightful replies, and will most likely poke by from time to time! It's a welcome change to the "omg death knight need healz plz" forum inanity that can be observed elsewhere.


Vengeance stacks are now MUCH easier and faster to build than they use to be. They changed it so that EVERY hit refreshes/adds to the stack as opposed to the Chance on hit that it use to be. And HotR refreshes/adds to the stack and I assume SotR does to(only lvl74 here ).
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Postby Veilan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:46 pm

:shock:

Thanks, that is good to know!
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Postby uke » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:21 pm

Veilan wrote: I didn't know the eye for an eye mechanics too well. Struck me to be more PvPy too.



That's because they are, indeed, for PVP :wink:

Typical Ret PVP build will have both Vindication and Eye for an Eye, both of which are not very useful in PVE but very VERY nice for PVP, especially since resilience-negated crits still proc E4AE.

However, crit immunity at the defense cap means no crits at all (as opposed to a crit being negated by resilience), rendering E4AE completely useless for tanking.
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Postby Veilan » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:24 pm

BubbaBill wrote:Vengeance stacks are now MUCH easier and faster to build than they use to be. They changed it so that EVERY hit refreshes/adds to the stack as opposed to the Chance on hit that it use to be. And HotR refreshes/adds to the stack and I assume SotR does to(only lvl74 here ).


While I guess slightly OT by now, emphasis added - insta-dotting three of the nasty buggers in front of you is just sweet. I was slightly disappointed with vengeance pre wotlk, but it's back with a ven... uh, with fervor.

I now begin to see why you guys all loathe reckoning so much, my plan (based on my fear of just causing big bosses to parry with reckoning) to dump it for AD (mhm or maybe seals of the pure... ponder ponder...) at 80 did get a fair reinforcement from this discovery.

Neat, thanks!
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Postby Candiru » Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:47 am

uke wrote:However, crit immunity at the defense cap means no crits at all (as opposed to a crit being negated by resilience), rendering E4AE completely useless for tanking.


You are forgetting the imba tank secret skill.

Press "X" to regen some bonus mana, at the cost of health. If you have E4aE it will proc that too, dealing 20% of the damage to the boss!

Snap agro AND free mana, what more do you want? :p


RE:Reckoning. Keep it for leveling, its imba., Just use Seal of Blood and a slow weapon and you will tear mobs apart. Not so good for tanking, but its amazing for leveling.
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Postby Veilan » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am

Candiru wrote:RE:Reckoning. Keep it for leveling, its imba., Just use Seal of Blood and a slow weapon and you will tear mobs apart. Not so good for tanking, but its amazing for leveling.


Veilan wrote:once I hit 80, reckoning is just very useful to quest with currently


:D
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