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Suggestion: Ban "Kings" threads.

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Suggestion: Ban "Kings" threads.

Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:33 pm

We've had eleventy-seven threads on Kings already. Can we just put a sticky in this forum that points people at the existing threads that cover Kings, and make i clear we don't want to argue it out again?

I'd suggest Winchester's guide and maybe my FAQ.

The exact same arguments come up every time, the issue has been done to death, BR'd, done to death again, soul-stoned and then killed again.

Something like this:

Subject: Kings - please read the stickies & don't start or necro a thread

The 3.0 "5 point" implementation of the Kings talent has been discussed many, many times on this forum.

It is very unlikely your new thread provides a new an exiting viewpoint on a really old topic.

The topic is will and truly covered in old threads (do a search) or in the existing stickies. Please read:

Winchester's Guide
Knaughty's FAQ

Don't start a new Kings thread. Don't necro a dead thread. There is almost no chance you have some new and special insight into the Kings debate. Lore summarised the entire thing quite well:

Lore wrote:At level 70, Holy and, if necessary, Prot take Kings. This is because Holy can't get to the extra crit talents in Ret, and Ret can take almost their full level 80 tree.

At 80, Ret and, if necessary, Prot take Kings. PVE Ret has 5 free talent points for it.

In both situations (70 and 80), Prot takes less of a hit than the tree that doesn't take kings. Prot has 3 talent points early in the tree (right after picking up BoSanc) that don't really have a home; most commonly you see them put in Imp HoJ or Reckoning, but although both talents do benefit you, it's not much in a raiding scenario. So that just leaves making up two talent points elsewhere, which isn't hard, especially if you're only going 6 in Ret (you should only be going 6 in Ret). We'll have to take a little bit bigger of a hit in 3.0.3 once Shield of the Templar gets its 3% damage reduction, but the fact remains that we really only have to scrape to find 2 points to finish out Kings.
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Postby Maihes » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:42 pm

Knaughty is a meany >.>

I do agree.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:04 pm

Maihes wrote:Knaughty is a meany >.>

Yup. I'm mad, bad and dangerous to contradict (unless you make a good point, ideally backed up with data).
Maihes wrote:I do agree.

Thank you, come again.
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Postby caboom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:09 am

I support this idea i however do not support the idea of introducing knaughty's FAQ among the referenced threads on the matter, because it clearely states the idea that "unless u take kings ur a nub, uninstall pliz!" wich is obviously flawed because of points made in the multiple threads about kings.
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Postby Rehlachs- » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:12 am

this is kings thread! ban it!
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:17 am

caboom wrote:I support this idea i however do not support the idea of introducing knaughty's FAQ among the referenced threads on the matter, because it clearely states the idea that "unless u take kings ur a nub, uninstall pliz!" wich is obviously flawed because of points made in the multiple threads about kings.

ur a nub, uninstall pliz

Apparently I said that sometime.
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Postby caboom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:20 am

Knaughty wrote:
caboom wrote:I support this idea i however do not support the idea of introducing knaughty's FAQ among the referenced threads on the matter, because it clearely states the idea that "unless u take kings ur a nub, uninstall pliz!" wich is obviously flawed because of points made in the multiple threads about kings.

ur a nub, uninstall pliz

Apparently I said that sometime.


If you change the wording in some Q&A and make some look more like sugestions in the points where choice should be given, it should be fine imho. It's otherwise ok because it's not dull. ;)

PS : no offense intended, i just like decent guides, afterall we're making guides at maintankadin not some sewer of a forum dump like the official ones.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:24 am

caboom wrote:If you change the wording in some Q&A and make some look more like sugestions in the points where choice should be given, it should be fine imho. It's otherwise ok because it's not dull. ;)


I think you need to read the current version. I cleaned it up after it got stickied at some point and toned down the ranting a little. But only a little.

People who skip Kings to prove a point, and end up with no Kings in raid at all, simply don't deserve a raid spot, IMO. If you have a Ret pally to cover it, skip it. If you have a holy pally covering it, tell him to spec PvE instead of PvP, and spec Kings yourself.

Kings: *sigh*
Majiben wrote:Here's the Rule of Thumb
Include Kings in all cookie cutter specs because it is too powerful of a buff to risk not having on yourself or your dps/healers. People can chose to remove it from their specs if they have a regular ret/holy paladin who buffs it but Don't ever plan on not taking it till you know with 100% certainty that 1-2 others are bringing it every raid.

Q: What first blessing do I want?
A: Kings Unless you outgear the content, then Sanctuary. You did spec Kings, right?

Q: I don't want to spec kings!
A: Then don't ask for advice. Lore, Psiven, Worldie, etc (me) all think Kings is better than Imp Hoj / Divine Guardian. You can skip kings at 80, if you have an utterly reliable Retribution paladin.

Q: So who does spec Kings?
A: At least one paladin in-raid, probably two.
A: At 70: Prot & Holy.
• Prot because we always give up the least to collect it. And we don't need SotP at 70.
• Holy because they can't get to Conviction without skipping Bacon. And Bacon is awesome.
• Ret probably doesn't, because they can pretty much get their 80 tree if they skip it, can't otherwise.
A: At 80: Prot & Ret.
• Prot because we always give up the least to collect it. And there's not much else to get.
• Holy probably doesn't, because 51/0/18 is their basic healing spec and they only have 2 free points unless they drop crit talents. And Crit is AWESOME for Holy. So they end up 53/0/18 or 51/0/20. They can go 51/5/15 if you have no ret pally in-guild, but it's not great.
• Ret, because PvE ret is: 0/10/61 SotP is crap for ret.

Q: I think you're wrong about Kings! Don't WANNA!
A: That's not a question.
Q: *ahem* Can I ever skip Kings?
A: Yes, if:
• At 70, Holy will probably have it - 51/5/5 will be pretty common. If you have a lot of Holy paladins in-raid, feel free.
• At 80, ret should always have Kings, so if you have an utterly reliable ret pally, or a pool of spares, you can skip it, and pick up Imp Might instead. Ret puts Kings on entire raid, you do Sanc on tanks, Might on physical, Wisdom on casters (or Holy does)
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Postby caboom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:27 am

Knaughty wrote:
caboom wrote:If you change the wording in some Q&A and make some look more like sugestions in the points where choice should be given, it should be fine imho. It's otherwise ok because it's not dull. ;)


I think you need to read the current version. I cleaned it up after it got stickied at some point and toned down the ranting a little. But only a little.

People who skip Kings to prove a point, and end up with no Kings in raid at all, simply don't deserve a raid spot, IMO. If you have a Ret pally to cover it, skip it. If you have a holy pally covering it, tell him to spec PvE instead of PvP, and spec Kings yourself.

Kings: *sigh*
Majiben wrote:Here's the Rule of Thumb
Include Kings in all cookie cutter specs because it is too powerful of a buff to risk not having on yourself or your dps/healers. People can chose to remove it from their specs if they have a regular ret/holy paladin who buffs it but Don't ever plan on not taking it till you know with 100% certainty that 1-2 others are bringing it every raid.

Q: What first blessing do I want?
A: Kings Unless you outgear the content, then Sanctuary. You did spec Kings, right?

Q: I don't want to spec kings!
A: Then don't ask for advice. Lore, Psiven, Worldie, etc (me) all think Kings is better than Imp Hoj / Divine Guardian. You can skip kings at 80, if you have an utterly reliable Retribution paladin.

Q: So who does spec Kings?
A: At least one paladin in-raid, probably two.
A: At 70: Prot & Holy.
• Prot because we always give up the least to collect it. And we don't need SotP at 70.
• Holy because they can't get to Conviction without skipping Bacon. And Bacon is awesome.
• Ret probably doesn't, because they can pretty much get their 80 tree if they skip it, can't otherwise.
A: At 80: Prot & Ret.
• Prot because we always give up the least to collect it. And there's not much else to get.
• Holy probably doesn't, because 51/0/18 is their basic healing spec and they only have 2 free points unless they drop crit talents. And Crit is AWESOME for Holy. So they end up 53/0/18 or 51/0/20. They can go 51/5/15 if you have no ret pally in-guild, but it's not great.
• Ret, because PvE ret is: 0/10/61 SotP is crap for ret.

Q: I think you're wrong about Kings! Don't WANNA!
A: That's not a question.
Q: *ahem* Can I ever skip Kings?
A: Yes, if:
• At 70, Holy will probably have it - 51/5/5 will be pretty common. If you have a lot of Holy paladins in-raid, feel free.
• At 80, ret should always have Kings, so if you have an utterly reliable ret pally, or a pool of spares, you can skip it, and pick up Imp Might instead. Ret puts Kings on entire raid, you do Sanc on tanks, Might on physical, Wisdom on casters (or Holy does)


Ah my bad then i haven't been in tone with the new version, gj there. Tnx for the notice.
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Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:31 am

caboom wrote:Ah my bad then i haven't been in tone with the new version, gj there. Tnx for the notice.


Yeah i think I complained about the sticky at one point because I realised I'd have to be (semi) polite.
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Postby Cidx » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:32 pm

The kings threads aren't just here they're also on the most recently made Tanking forums on WoW.

It's quite tiring and aggravating to see King threads. The people complaining about kings don't get it but those that get it are 100% fine about it, what's the deal with that?

Can't say I support banning just people need to be slapped into reality that no one cares what you do or do not get. My belief is everyone wants kings and you need 2 people with it, might as well get it. :D
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Postby Threatco » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:02 am

As new changes come out new discusions about how kings fits in with them seem valid. Such as with this new patch kings is a little less pretty in light of improvements to shield of Templar and BoM. I hope its discussed.
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Postby inthedrops » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:45 am

Threatco wrote:As new changes come out new discusions about how kings fits in with them seem valid. Such as with this new patch kings is a little less pretty in light of improvements to shield of Templar and BoM. I hope its discussed.


No, that's not allowed.
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Re: Suggestion: Ban "Kings" threads.

Postby Lore » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:42 am

Knaughty wrote:The exact same arguments come up every time, the issue has been done to death, BR'd, done to death again, soul-stoned and then killed again.


Alas, such is the nature of the internet.

We have been seeing two trends lately, divided among two "camps", if you will. On the one hand, we have Joe Everybody who comes to Maintankadin looking for some advice, doesn't see it immediately because there's 700 of him doing the same exact thing, and posts a short thread asking if he should pick up Kings or whatever.

Then we have the other camp, composed mostly of embittered Maintankadin veterans, who see that thread, immediately remember the exact same post that was made yesterday omg, and jump on Joe's case with lines such as "Use the search function", "No, and you're stupid," or (my personal favorite), " :roll: ".

I suspect you can tell by my tone which camp I am more sympathetic towards.

Maintankadin was formed with two primary goals. One was to foster discussion and theory regarding the Protection Paladin. The other was an extension of that goal: get that information into the hands of those that need it. Those goals have not changed.

Yes, you are going to see the same question 5,000 times. Yes, you might see 5 threads on Kings on the front page of the Talent Specs forum. We do our best to consolidate information, but the sheer size of the community makes it next to impossible to keep everything (particularly hotly-debated topics) under control.

So then, the question remains: When I come across the 5,001st "Should I Spec Kings" thread, and I just can't bear to answer that question again omg, what should I do? The answer: Don't. Just leave the thread alone. As soon as it registers in your mind "Great, another Kings thread", hit the back button and go somewhere else. That's it.

One of three things will happen:
#1: Someone else will answer the question (very likely)
#2: No one will answer at all, and Joe Everybody will just have to dig around a bit for his answer
#3: No one will answer at all, and Joe Everybody will either never find the answer (his loss, after all the information is so easy to find), or he'll do something silly like bump his thread over and over again until he finds his posting privileges mysteriously missing.

And I'll mention again that the content on Maintankadin is entirely community-driven. We're happy to sticky helpful guides, FAQs, and the like. They have to be written in order to be stickied, however.

We're working on a few things that should hopefully make life a little easier for everyone around here, but in the meantime, let's all try to just... not make life harder. That doesn't help anyone.
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Postby guillex » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:51 am

And this is why I <3 Lore.
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