Why do so many people get blessing of kings?

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Why do so many people get blessing of kings?

Postby Kalakaua » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:48 pm

Honestly... there are no useless talents in the protection tree and every tank is giving up something to get full blessing of kings, whether it be the extra dps from seals of the pure, or the utility of improved hammer of justice. Even Divine Guardian has it's uses (Kael, 2nd phase in MgT, while the other tank currently has aggro in ZA or whatever).

It just seems like Blessing of Kings is the most useless talent in the tree. Blessing of sanctuary is almost always better on tanks, Blessing of might is almost always better on physical dps, and on casters, the benefit is extremely marginal. Blessing of sanctuary combined with improved devotion aura is arguably better at improving survivability for everyone.

Holy and Ret paladins give up far less to pick up this talent in raid situations so why are so many tanks taking it? 5 talent points for something you should rarely be using seems like a waste.
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Re: Why do so many people get blessing of kings?

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:58 pm

FAQ
Kalakaua wrote:Honestly... there are no useless talents in the protection tree

Reckoning.
Kalakaua wrote:Holy and Ret paladins give up far less to pick up this talent in raid situations so why are so many tanks taking it? 5 talent points for something you should rarely be using seems like a waste.

You're wrong about Holy, they give up 3% crit to get Kings, this is a far bigger sacrifice than anything Prot gives up.

Unless you're talking about 70?

@ 70: Holy (51/5/5) & Prot should have Kings
@ 80: Ret (0/10/61) & Prot should have Kings

This is probably the most argued thing on the forum.

Go do a search, it's all been said before.
Last edited by knaughty on Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do so many people get blessing of kings?

Postby guillex » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:00 pm

Knaughty wrote:FAQ
Kalakaua wrote:Honestly... there are no useless talents in the protection tree

Reckoning.
Kalakaua wrote:Holy and Ret paladins give up far less to pick up this talent in raid situations so why are so many tanks taking it? 5 talent points for something you should rarely be using seems like a waste.

You're wrong about Holy, they give up 3% crit to get Kings, this is a far bigger sacrifice than anything Prot gives up.

Unless you're talking about 70?

@ 70: Holy (51/5/5) & Prot should have Kings
@ 80: Ret (0/10/61) & Prot should have Kings

PS: IBTL.

This is probably the most argued thing on the forum.

Go do a search, it's all been said before.


BTW ... Knaughty, just to bring you down a peg:

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=9555

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Postby majiben » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:04 pm

I'll reiterate:

Here's the Rule of Thumb
Include Kings in all cookie cutter specs because it is too powerful of a buff to risk not having on yourself or your dps/healers. People can chose to remove it from their specs if they have a regular ret/holy paladin who buffs it but Don't ever plan on not taking it till you know with 100% certainty that 1-2 others are bringing it every raid.
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Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:31 pm

Probably the only thing I can add before this turns into a flame-fest is this:

(1) A majority of the experienced raid MTs (Sunwell experience, raid-lead experience) think that Kings is more important than Imp HoJ, which is really your only other choice. You can get Kings, Imp Devo, DG & SotP all at once. 5/60/6 is pretty decent, for example.

(2) Right now, SotP is pretty marginal, and Conviction was never very good. You just don't get much bang for you buck - they're well under "1% per point" which is the "budget" for talents. If you want Imp HoJ and some deeper Ret talents, you can always skip SotP.

(3) If you have a ton of Ret! pallies in-guild, skip Kings and collect Imp Might. Ret does Kings, you do Sanc/Might.

(4) Don't expect level 80 Holy pallies to have Kings, you're hurting them.

(5) If you're going to tank progression 10-mans, you'll probably want Kings so you can cast it on yourself when no other pallies are present. 10s are also a great argument for Imp Devo - you won't always have a Tree.
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Re: Why do so many people get blessing of kings?

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:36 pm

Guillex wrote:BTW ... Knaughty, just to bring you down a peg:

http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... php?t=9555

IBTL - IBTL or "in before the lock" posts will be deleted on sight..

Wasn't aware, removed form orig post, and will stop doing it.

*sigh* Mods kill all my fun. Apparently I'm not allowed to swear, bait the noobs, or feed the trolls :roll:
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Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:36 pm

Majiben wrote:I'll reiterate:

Here's the Rule of Thumb
Include Kings in all cookie cutter specs because it is too powerful of a buff to risk not having on yourself or your dps/healers. People can chose to remove it from their specs if they have a regular ret/holy paladin who buffs it but Don't ever plan on not taking it till you know with 100% certainty that 1-2 others are bringing it every raid.

Stealing for the FAQ.
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Postby Levantine » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:53 pm

But I'll starve to death without Knaughty feeding me lulz! D:

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Postby masterpoobaa » Tue Oct 28, 2008 6:18 pm

yeps.
I know of 2 other pallies in our guild - healer and ret, and neither have taken kings.

So im the only one in raids doing kings. too useful to miss.
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Postby Kalakaua » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:54 pm

I agree that at lvl 80, prot should take kings before holy, but I see no reason to take it before then. My original post was just wondering why so many people were taking it at 70, because they will never use it while leveling and for lvl 70 raiding, holy and ret can take it. There are too many options at lvl 70 that are better than kings.

However, even at lvl 80, I don't think kings should be part of the cookie cutter spec. I agree that it's a useful buff and guilds should bring 1 pally with blessing of kings, but if there are no ret pallies, the prot pally who takes kings should be the exception, not the standard, like the holy paladins who took improved blessing of might pre-patch.

Blessing of Kings is good, but the cost was increased from 1 pt to 5 points while the usefulness was reduced now that sanctuary is better for tanking. Kings is a secondary buff, behind sanctuary for tanks, might for physical dps, and in some cases, blessing of wisdom for casters (which has increased importance now that chain potting no longer exists).

At lvl 80, I'll take blessing of kings if my guild has no ret pallies or any other prot pallies willing to take it. However, if kings is covered for raiding, the other options are better.

SotP, Conviction, Imp. BoM, will increase dps which is helpful for making enrage timers.

Improved Devotion Aura and Improved Hammer of Justice both have usefulness that will extend to BGs and 5-man content. Based on my experience, prot is a viable BG spec and these talents will make it that much more fun. (I once got #1 dps and killing blows in EoTS recently).

Divine Guardian seems like an awesome offtank ability. My tanking experience is limited to Hyjal and up to Shade in BT, but I can think of several fights where it would be useful. For example, I could pop it when the other tank is tanking bear form in ZA or during Kael's 2nd phase in MgT. I know these places are jokes now, but similar mechanics could exist in future fights.
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Postby majiben » Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:56 pm

I'll reiterate again:
Majiben wrote:I'll reiterate:

Here's the Rule of Thumb
Include Kings in all cookie cutter specs because it is too powerful of a buff to risk not having on yourself or your dps/healers. People can chose to remove it from their specs if they have a regular ret/holy paladin who buffs it but Don't ever plan on not taking it till you know with 100% certainty that 1-2 others are bringing it every raid.
If you have a single warrior and only 1 paladin in your raid it's better to have battle shout and kings on them than just might. Also most caster dps prefer kings over wisdom (whether or not that is maximizing their dps is another issue).

And if you take sanc over kings in any fight fight like brutalus (hell a progession prince fight will give you an idea) he will slap you silly, along with every other member of your raid. They will also send you their repair bills for your hubris.
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Postby Sithy » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:08 am

Kalakaua wrote:I agree that at lvl 80, prot should take kings before holy, but I see no reason to take it before then. My original post was just wondering why so many people were taking it at 70, because they will never use it while leveling and for lvl 70 raiding, holy and ret can take it. There are too many options at lvl 70 that are better than kings.

However, even at lvl 80, I don't think kings should be part of the cookie cutter spec. I agree that it's a useful buff and guilds should bring 1 pally with blessing of kings, but if there are no ret pallies, the prot pally who takes kings should be the exception, not the standard, like the holy paladins who took improved blessing of might pre-patch.

Blessing of Kings is good, but the cost was increased from 1 pt to 5 points while the usefulness was reduced now that sanctuary is better for tanking. Kings is a secondary buff, behind sanctuary for tanks, might for physical dps, and in some cases, blessing of wisdom for casters (which has increased importance now that chain potting no longer exists).

At lvl 80, I'll take blessing of kings if my guild has no ret pallies or any other prot pallies willing to take it. However, if kings is covered for raiding, the other options are better.

SotP, Conviction, Imp. BoM, will increase dps which is helpful for making enrage timers.

Improved Devotion Aura and Improved Hammer of Justice both have usefulness that will extend to BGs and 5-man content. Based on my experience, prot is a viable BG spec and these talents will make it that much more fun. (I once got #1 dps and killing blows in EoTS recently).

Divine Guardian seems like an awesome offtank ability. My tanking experience is limited to Hyjal and up to Shade in BT, but I can think of several fights where it would be useful. For example, I could pop it when the other tank is tanking bear form in ZA or during Kael's 2nd phase in MgT. I know these places are jokes now, but similar mechanics could exist in future fights.

Sanctuary is better than kings, unless you're in progression content. Which is exactly where I plan to be when Wrath comes out.

Yeah, kings costing 4 more points is annoying, but the total points you have to shift into prot is pretty much the same as it was pre-3.0. I'm not saying that's a good thing, in fact it added more bloat to the tree, but is isn't a "bad" thing.

(5/60/6) http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZaxVAbuMteIRGoxo - You get all the mitigation talents, as threat is rather trivial this will probably end up being the cookie cutter spec, with a few points moved around, as I have tend to like Divine Guardian.

(0/53/18) http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVAbuRtfIRGoxf0x0c - If I don't need kings and if we do fall behind in threat, as it looks like we might currently, I'll go with a build like this. I'm hoping I won't have to, but who knows.
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Postby caboom » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:13 am

First i will state that i am not using kings in my talent build, neither now at 70 and neither i will at 80, why ? reason is simple in a raid environment i want to be a better TANK not a better BUFFER, it is also the view that is agreed uppon(an was sugested) by my tank team and my raid leader.

Some would say but what about 5 mans? Well most melee prefer might anyways over kings, and well casters haven't cried yet about not having kings over wisdom(less dps but less downtime aswell), because of using 5/8 T6 i generally have mana problems in any heroics/kara/ZA(w/o wisdom), and there are usual situations in the above mentioned dungeons where you *cannot* pull more, so i always use sanctuary.
For lower lvl gear, and ppl just starting out heroics i agree that kings should be a good choice.

Holy issue

@Knaughty : i must say that you are picking up alot of lackluster talents in the ret tree for that 3 % crit(13 talent points for 3% or 15 talents for 5% crit, with mana reduction to your instant cast spells(buffs and holy shock), Imp. Might and Heart of the Crusader is taken by any ret, and i doubt ur taking Imp. Judge as holy), i've asked my fellow holy paladins about your choices and they've told me that in sunwell haste and not crit is the issue. Ofc all of them are specced into kings atm.

At 80 ret could pick up kings with least dificulty idd but they generally would also prefer not to, unfortunately for them they have nowhere to spend those last 5 points. (this is how i see lvl 80 PVE ret : http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxZVfbtbIufMsguAo )
Lvl 80 prot could further enhance their tanking abilities by skiping kings. (this is how i see the min/maxed lvl 80 prot : http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sVZ0xVAcuMteIRGovo )
Lvl 80 holy would gain or lose nothing by having or not having kings.(this is how i see lvl 80 PVE holy with 6 pts to spare : http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=sxAzgGzhiuMeRta )
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Postby Levantine » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:44 am

Caboom, do you have any idea at all how powerful 8% crit is to a Holy Paladin?

In Wrath Haste is terrible, and Crit is a Holy Paladin's king stat.

At 70 Prot and Holy pick up Kings, at 80 it's Ret and Prot.
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Postby caboom » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:52 am

Levantine wrote:Caboom, do you have any idea at all how powerful 8% crit is to a Holy Paladin?

In Wrath Haste is terrible, and Crit is a Holy Paladin's king stat.

At 70 Prot and Holy pick up Kings, at 80 it's Ret and Prot.


Why is haste terrible in wrath since holy is getting a 15% haste buff up in it's own talent tree ?!?! your not making any sense...
And why is a haste terrible on a class that almost exclusively relies on using every available GCD ?
Where are you getting ur 8% from, i see only 5% there in the talent, and you would spend 15 talent points for 5% crit ?

About ret and prot, i would say, since i am gonna be ret, i will have kings, but i would not advise my felow tankadins doing 25 mans raiding to spec into it.
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