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Postby Celestira » Wed Oct 15, 2008 3:51 am

I can't gaurentee another kingsbot so I'll be using:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin ... 1533312021
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Imp Devo Aura

Postby Daenerys » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:04 am

Hi guys,

a couple of questions..

1. Would you take Imp Devo Aura for the armor bonus even if you ALWAYS run with a tree druid and only do 5-mans?
2. If the answer is no, 3 pts in Reckoning or 3 pts in Hammer of Justice? I hate giving up Reckoning even though people keep saying it's not useful any more.. :P
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Postby landolis » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:00 am

First of all, I have been wondering...is Judgements of the Just worthwhile since it most likely doesn't work on raid bosses? I haven't tested it out when I was on the PTR, so I don't know if it does debuff raid bosses or just trash, but the Ret talent that was similar and reduced atributes (vindication) didn't debuff bosses from what I remember.

Also, wouldn't reckoning be a good addition for more threat per second? Obviously if threat isn't a problem, then it isn't needed as much, but it seems like it'd be pretty helpful.

Here's what I played with on the PTR:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0ugteIRooxb

I didn't get imp hammer of justice because...let's face it, with a 25 man at least (10 mans certainly could be different), are you really not going to have enough people in the raid to stop casting to a point where you have to? I've had no need to pre-patch, and unless some classes lose interrupts, I imagine it won't be as necessary.

Also, I seem to be seeing that EVERYONE is putting points in kings. However, on the PTR and even on live pre-patch, I had a lot of different discussions that led to the fact that tankadins will no longer want to put talent points into kings because they could be much more useful elsewhere. this COULD change depending on if you don't have any other non-prot pallies in your raid very often. But, I could be wrong and maybe we SHOULD put 5 talents into kings. It just seems like a waste to me.
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Postby Seph » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:58 pm

This is the level 80 specialization I'm currently considering. Please critique it!

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZoxVA0ugteIRGoxf00b
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Postby Rhiannon » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:46 pm

landolis wrote:First of all, I have been wondering...is Judgements of the Just worthwhile since it most likely doesn't work on raid bosses? I haven't tested it out when I was on the PTR, so I don't know if it does debuff raid bosses or just trash, but the Ret talent that was similar and reduced atributes (vindication) didn't debuff bosses from what I remember.

Also, wouldn't reckoning be a good addition for more threat per second? Obviously if threat isn't a problem, then it isn't needed as much, but it seems like it'd be pretty helpful.

Here's what I played with on the PTR:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZ0xVA0ugteIRooxb

I didn't get imp hammer of justice because...let's face it, with a 25 man at least (10 mans certainly could be different), are you really not going to have enough people in the raid to stop casting to a point where you have to? I've had no need to pre-patch, and unless some classes lose interrupts, I imagine it won't be as necessary.

Also, I seem to be seeing that EVERYONE is putting points in kings. However, on the PTR and even on live pre-patch, I had a lot of different discussions that led to the fact that tankadins will no longer want to put talent points into kings because they could be much more useful elsewhere. this COULD change depending on if you don't have any other non-prot pallies in your raid very often. But, I could be wrong and maybe we SHOULD put 5 talents into kings. It just seems like a waste to me.


Judgements of the Just is our answer to thunderclap. It works on bosses, just like thunderclap.

Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is the main tanking seal now. It doesn't benefit from reckoning.
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Postby landolis » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:45 pm

Ahhhhh that makes complete sense. Will it stack with thunderclap?

Can we stack up to 5 debuffs of the seal of corruption before the judgement CD is up? or Will this normally not be 5 stacks?

A question I've had about SoCorr...is this our answer to a new taunt? Casting this on a target would help build threat similar to a taunt?
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Postby Icaros » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:37 am

Seph wrote:This is the level 80 specialization I'm currently considering. Please critique it!

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZoxVA0ugteIRGoxf00b


Well, I don't think different of you. I will get this way too.

I will just change

Reckoning 2/5
Benediction 3/5
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Postby Korath » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:47 pm

I went for 0/55/06 in the end

Tho haven't had time to try it yet, having too much fun on my lvl 60 retlol :D
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.::. Karak 70 Resto Shaman .::.
.::. Sajuuk 70 Destro Warlock .::.
.::. Bentusi 60 Ret Paladin .::.
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Postby Kilthanas » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:25 pm

For those of us rare 25 man guilds that don't have a regular ret pally, here is the spec I will be using...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxVA0uMteIoMoxc

Gets all the best mitigation/avoidance talents plus picks up the 3% raidwide crit cause we don't have a ret pally and that helps boss fights go more quickly. Don't really stun much outside of the now non-existant bear runs and don't need to silence really so I skipped HoJ. I want kings for 5 and 10 mans and in case the pally healer that specced it isn't there. Imp Devo aura is good IMO.

Thoughts?

Worked well in BT last night. We were a 4/9 BT guild, but last night we killed 7 bosses in our normal raid time. I finished 8th in total dmg I think although that includes a room where we pulled the whole thing and most ppl died while I and a few healers solo'd the rest down.

I know some will say that if I'm missing the imp judgments that my rotation will be whack but frankly I don't need it to be perfect atm, my threat is insane and no dps can catch me single target.
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Postby Mialina » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:18 pm

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=501000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000050053503311251533312121
will be what I'll most probably use in raids, as soon as I'm done patching, damn I'm busy :/
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Postby Icaros » Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:01 am

Hey,

I saw a couple builds like Mialina posted and I don't agree with Improved Hammer of Justice is requerid to Raid spec.

Mobs of TK and SSC half part are immune an HoJ
Mobs of BT and Sunwell all are immune
Just kara,za and Hyjal are enable to HoJ.

We need use 3 points to enable the rest of spec page. I prefer use it on Kings than IHoJ.

whate everyone think about it?


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Postby Balendro » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:17 am

The reason people take imp HoJ is for the interrupt effect on bosses, too, I think. Obviously you can't stun bosses, but it can be useful to have that interrupt handy.

Kilthanas wrote:For those of us rare 25 man guilds that don't have a regular ret pally, here is the spec I will be using...

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sZaxVA0uMteIoMoxc

Gets all the best mitigation/avoidance talents plus picks up the 3% raidwide crit cause we don't have a ret pally and that helps boss fights go more quickly. Don't really stun much outside of the now non-existant bear runs and don't need to silence really so I skipped HoJ. I want kings for 5 and 10 mans and in case the pally healer that specced it isn't there. Imp Devo aura is good IMO.

Thoughts?

Worked well in BT last night. We were a 4/9 BT guild, but last night we killed 7 bosses in our normal raid time. I finished 8th in total dmg I think although that includes a room where we pulled the whole thing and most ppl died while I and a few healers solo'd the rest down.

I know some will say that if I'm missing the imp judgments that my rotation will be whack but frankly I don't need it to be perfect atm, my threat is insane and no dps can catch me single target.


Ret paladins are not the only class that can apply a crit increase debuff to bosses. Mutilate rogues and and elemental shaman can, too. However, the build looks fine for what you're after. If I had to pick up that crit increase, it would probably be what I would do... though I might pull a point out of Ardent Defender for imp judgement.
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Postby Sielanas » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:44 pm

Exactly, HoJ is our Pummel or Kick. Now on IC I can actually take the priest solo instead of calling for/having an assigned rogue. It's not as much I want it, but I need points to fill that level as I was specced, skipping Kings. Recalcing for 3.0.3 I may leave it out entirely.
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Postby Apollya » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:44 am

I've put this together to post for any future tanks on our Forums. Please Critique it, I've also given a few brief reasons why to choose certain points. I wasn't banking on having other Paladins buffing kings, as it happens several of our Holy paladins have taken it, so I may be re-spec slightly.

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Talent Points, How to Spend them and Why:

Talents written in Green are ones you should take.
Talents written in Orange are decent and should be considered or possibly taken later.
Talents written in Red should be missed as they are not beneficial.

Holy Tree:

Seals of the pure 0/5 - Increases damage done by seals of Vengeance and Corruption and their Judgements by 3% per point. Extra dmg and threat on Seal of Corruption, which stacks like a Sunder armor on multiple targets.

Nothing else in Holy tree in needed!


Protection Tree:

Blessing of kings 1/1 - It's a No brainer 9/10 you will be the Paladin buffing Kings, Holy Paladins now might lose some very useful talents in order to sepc for kings.

Improved blessing of kings 4/4 - Well quite obvious 10% Extra Stats is better than 2%.

Divine strength 5/5 - Protections Paladins now need Attack Power. we gain 2 Attack Power per Strength point and also some block value. So this increases your threat and mitigation.

Stoichism 0/3 - Sure reduction to stuns and reduction of spells being dispelled is nice but its far less effective for tanks than other talents, so this one gets missed.

Guardian's favor 0/2 - Cool down on bubbles for other players is shortened, yeah I guess it'd be nice, but again not the most valuable talent so is skipped.

Anticipation 5/5 - 5% Added Dodge. Pure and Simple Mitigation.

Righteous fury 3/3 - All Dmg is reduced by 6%. Again Straight Forward Damage Mitigation. (Righteous fury is always active as Prot).

Toughness 5/5 - Increased armor, therefore damage reduction, take it.

Divine Guardian 0/2 - When you use Divine Shield 15% of all raid dmg is re-directed to you. So you Bubble to remove all impairing effects... Why not Divine Protection (Shield Wall) to reduce your dmg taken to 50% whilst still keeping threat instead. Basically this Talent means that when you need to Bubblewall (temporarily changes aggro of the mob) you'll still gain some threat. It's a thrill talent, Skip it.

Improved hammer of Justice 0/3 - Ok so it reduces the cooldown on your stuns and interupts, Great in theory but not the best talent choice at present until you have more to spend. Skipp till later

Improved devotion Aura 3/3 - Since all Auras now apply to everyone in the raid a Holy paladin or retri can provide you with Retribution Aura. You'll be giving devotion for Extra Armor and Extra healing to the entire raid.

Blessing of sanctuary 1/1 - Great for those situation when someone Else is giving the kings.

Sacred duty 2/2 - You still do dmg when divine shield is up, BUT more imprtantly you gain 6% Stamina. Stamina gives HP and spell dmg!.

One-handed weapon specialization 5/5 - Simple, ALL dmg you do is increased by 10% whilst you have a 1h weapon equipped.

Holy-shield 1/1 - You're dead/Useless without it!

Ardent defender 5/5- Below 35% HP you take 30% less dmg, again it buys time for healer when you get hit hard n fast.

Redoubt 3/3 - 30 Block Value for Free and 30% Chance to block ona proc.... Oh.... Redoubt Procs a lot!

Combat expertise 3/3 - So 6 expertise, 6% crit and 6% Stamina - No Brainer!

Touched by the light 3/3 - Returns 30% of your Sta as Spell Dmg. New Tank gear has stacks of Sta but no spell dmg. This will add some nice extra threat as Paladin tank spells tend to be based on both Spell Dmg and AP.

Avenger's Shield 1/1 - It's your Pulling tool, that simple!

Guarded by the light 0/2 - Reduces spell damage taken by 6% and reduces mana cost of Avenger's Shield, Holy-shield and Shield of Righteousness. So less dmg take and more mana to use. Low on talent points so skip for now, will want to max this talent out as soon s possible when levelling to 80.

Shield of the templar 3/3 - Increases Damage of Avenger's Shield, Holy-shield and Shield of Righteousness by 10% and also reduces all damage taken by 1% per point. So more dmg / threat on your staple spells as well as reducing damage. It's a no-brainer.

Judgements of the just 2/2 - Your judgements also Reduce the Attack Speed of the Enemy by 10% per point. Judgements are used every cooldown so this adds mitigation. All boss fights are balanced around the boss having a 20% reduced attack speed by thunderclap, It keeps the fight balanced for us while main tanking too, take it

Hammer of the righteous 1/1 - It's the paladins Cleave. Basically while using Seal of Corruption (Vengeance for Alliance) not only do you cleave 3 targets but you refresh / apply more charges of corruption to those 3 targets too, great for AoE tanking threat.


Retribution Tree:

Deflection 5/5 - Increases your parry chance by 5%. Its Mitigation pure and simple.

Benediction 0/5 - reduces the mana cost of all instant cast spells by 2% per point. Reduces your mana cost on a lot of spells so means less likely to ahve any mana issues.

Improved Judgements 0/2 - Reduces the cooldown of judgements by 1seconds. Judgements have decent beneficial effects and do nice damage, therefore are a staple to produce threat. All calculations show that judgement rotations work better on a 9sec (1/2 points) cooldown rather than 10sec (standard) or 8sec 2/2 Points. Judgements have been nerfed a lot so might be better to skip taking 1/2 until level 71. But taking 1/2 is a must for any level 80 Protection spec.

Heart of the crusader 0/3 - your Judgements also increase the critical srtike chance of all attack against the target by 1% per point. It's an extra 3% crit for the entire raid, very nie talent, however hopefully a retridin will be giving this one.

Pursuit of justice 0/2 - Reduces duration of disarm effect by 25% and increases movement speed (incl mounted speed) by 7.5% (rounded to highest whole %) per point. If you have talent points to spare this would be a very useful talent to take, the movement is an added bonus but being disarmed for 50% less is the real deal here.

Nothing else in Retribution tree is needed!

Hopefully this breakdown on talents will be useful to some - Enjoy Tanking!

Credits to: Apollya of <Combustion> @ Argent Dawn for collecting information and putting together.

Note: This Guide and Information can be copied in full and/or edited as long as credit to the author is given on the site.


****Updated following Snake-Aes' comments and also reflecting the SotT update in Patch 3.03****
Last edited by Apollya on Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:34 am

Apollya wrote:Talents written in Green are ones you should take.
Talents written in Orange are decent and should be considered or possibly taken later.
Talents written in Red should be missed as they are not beneficial.

Holy Tree:

Seals of the pure 0/5 - Increases damage done my seals of Vengeance and Corruption and their Judgements by 3% per point. Extra dmg and threat on Seal of Corruption, which stacks like a Sunder armor on multiple targets.

Nothing else in Holy tree in needed!


Protection Tree:

Blessing of kings 1/1 - It's a No brainer 9/10 you will be the Paladin buffing Kings, Holy Paladins now might lose some very useful talents in order to sepc for kings.

Improved blessing of kings 4/4 - Well quite obvious 10% Extra Stats is better than 2%.

Divine strength 5/5 - Protections Paladins now need Attack Power. we gain 2 Attack Power per Strength point and also some block value. So this increases your threat and mitigation.

Stoichism 0/3 - Sure reduction to stuns and reduction of spells being dispelled is nice but its far less effective for tanks than other talents, so this one gets missed.

Guardian's favor 0/2 - Cool down on bubbles for other players is shortened, yeah I guess it'd be nice, but again not the most valuable talent so is skipped.

Anticipation 5/5 - 5% Added Dodge. Pure and Simple Mitigation.

Righteous fury 3/3 - All Dmg is reduced by 6%. Again Straight Forward Damage Mitigation. (Righteous fury is always active as Prot).

Toughness 4/5 - Well Ideally I'd have 5/5 as armor increase is nice mitigation, but since you only have 61 talent points to spend at level 70 a few talents have to miss out at the moment.


Apollya wrote:Divine Guardian 0/2 - When you use Divine Shield 15% of all raid dmg is re-directed to you. So you Bubble to remove all impairing effects... Why not Divine Protection (Shield Wall) to reduce your dmg taken to 50% whilst still keeping threat instead. Basically this Talent gives you a second far more powerful shield wall possibly. but until you got lot's of talents to spend it is a bit of a thrill talent. Skip it

A few wrong assumptions here. First one is that DG doesn't work with bubblewall, only Divine shield, so you don't take any damage. It's only real usefulness is to cut short some damage going towards others.
Apollya wrote:Improved hammer of Justice 0/3 - Ok so it reduces the cooldown on your stuns and interupts, Great in theory but not the best talent choice at present until you have more to spend. Skipp till later

Improved devotion Aura 3/3 - Since all Auras now apply to everyone in the raid a Holy paladin or retri can provide you with Retribution Aura. You'll be giving devotion for Extra Armor and Extra healing to the entire raid.

Blessing of sanctuary 1/1 - Great for those situation when someone Else is giving the kings.


Apollya wrote:Sacred duty 2/2 - You still do dmg when divine shield is up, and more imprtantly you gain 6% Stamina. Stamina gives HP and spell dmg!.

Also divine protection. bubblewall without threat losses is a good bubblewall.
Apollya wrote:One-handed weapon specialization 5/5 - Simple, all dmg you do is increased by 10% whilst you have a 1h weapon equipped.

Holy-shield 1/1 - You're dead/Useless without it!

Ardent defender 5/5- Below 35% HP you take 30% less dmg, again it buys time for healer when you get hit hard n fast.

Redoubt 3/3 - 30 Block Value for Free and 30% Chance to block ona proc.... Oh.... Redoubt Procs a lot!

Combat expertise 3/3 - So 6 expertise, 6% crit and 6% Stamina - No Brainer!


Apollya wrote:Touched by the light 3/3 - Returns 30% of your Sta as Spell Dmg. New Tank gear as stacks of Sta but no spell dmg and it adds some nice threat as Paladin tank spells tend to be based on 7%Spell Dmg and 7% AP.

That's just SoV. If this is to be a future reference guide, don't bother with specific scaling numbers in this sector. Just mention that's how it works.
Apollya wrote:[color=green]Avenger's Shield 1/1[/color] - It's your Pulling tool, that simple!

Guarded by the light 2/2 - Reduces spell damage taken by 6% and reduces mana cost of Avenger's Shield, Holy-shield and Shield of Righteousness. So less dmg take and more mana to use.


Apollya wrote:Shield of the templar 1/3[/b] - Increases Damage of Avenger's Shield, Holy-shield and Shield of Righteousness by 10% per point. So more dmg / threat on your staple spells. As we're low on points at this point only taken 1/3, however would want 3/3 as soon as possible

It also reduces damage income by 3%. In the current state, you might as well fill toughness and not take SotP for now.
Apollya wrote:[b]Judgements of the just 1/2 - Increases Damage done by your jufgements by 10% per point. Judgements are used often so this adds threat. Again low on points so only taken 1/2, would want 2/2 as soon as possible.

Wrong. Judgments of the Just slow the enemy's attack speed by 20%. It's our thunder clap. Every tank has an attack speed debuff and you will be balanced around having it. Take it.
Apollya wrote:Hammer of the righteous 1/1 - It's the paladins Cleave. Basically while using Seal of Corruption (Vengeance for Alliance) not only do you cleave 3 targets but you refresh / apply more charges of corruption to those 3 targets too, great for AoE tanking threat.


Retribution Tree:

Deflection 5/5 - Increases your parry chance by 5%. Its Mitigation pure and simple.


Apollya wrote:Improved Judgements 2/2 - Reduces the cooldown of judgements by 2seconds. Judgements have decent beneficial effects and do nice damage, therefore are a staple to produce threat.

1/2, man, not 2/2. The best attempts at figuring stable ways of generating threat rely on judgments on a 9 seconds cd, and can't use judgments on an 8 seconds cd.
Apollya wrote:Nothing else in Retribution tree is needed!

I'd still mention Heart of the Crusader, Benediction and Pursuit of Justice. All three are greatly useful.
Apollya wrote:Hopefully this breakdown on talents will be useful to some - Enjoy Tanking!

Credits to: Apollya of <Combustion> @ Argent Dawn for collecting information and putting together.

Note: This Guide and Information can be copied in full and/or edited as long as credit to the author is given on the site.
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