Improved Judgement

[Lore]

Cast HS & judge
1.5 sec later cast Seal
9.5 sec later the judgment is ready
10 sec later the HS is ready
11.5 sec later is the soonest you can reseal w/o messing up your HS being up.

9.5 secs later?

With a HS+Judge at 0 seconds, Judge will be ready again at 8 seconds, when you can freely reseal and still have 0.5 seconds to spare in getting Holy Shield back up.

What complicates things though is Consecration.

[kalbear]

Okay, I'll try and do it again. Assume that at the 0 second mark, HS is going to run out and be renewable. Also assume that you can judge then as well.

0 sec: cast HS and judge (and have a macro to do this, which is a bit odd)
1.5 sec: reseal
8 sec: judge & reseal
10 sec: cast HS

So you're right, you can get it in. You'll still interfere every 5 refreshes, but that's not as bad. You'll also miss some attacks in there per my original statement.

And that assumes perfect reflexes.

Consecrate also causes some issue here, as stated. You'll either be missing more consecrate times or you'll be missing more seals. And while it doesn't sound like it should be, missing a hit with a sealed attack is actually a fairly big difference in terms of TPS in comparison to what is gained from judging.

[Lore]

Yeah I ran out a timeline, once you've settled into a rotation (meaning Consecration has started running into Holy Shield, which always happens, and Judgement is occasionally overlapping) you end up with a 40-second rotation that looks like this:

0.0 HS
0.0 Judge
1.5 Consecration
3.0 SoR <- lost 3 seconds of SoR
8.0 Judge
10.0 HS
11.5 Consecration
16.0 Judge
16.0 SoR
20.0 HS
21.5 Consecration
24.0 Judge
24.0 SoR
30.0 HS
31.5 Consecration
32.0 Judge
33.0 SoR <- lost 1 second of SoR
40.0 HS
40.0 Judge <- back to where we started

So that's 4 seconds lost every 40 in two chunks of 3 seconds and 1 second. And yeah, assumes no latency etc. I have a feeling latency would end up leaning a bit more in imp judge's favor.

[Blutreich]

when i am tanking HS comes first, now it is down for prolly 1/8 of a sec on average cause of lag, now judge/reseal tends to end up being closer to ¼ so each cycle my judge gets a smidgen further from the HS until i lose one, i have been considering 1 point so i can be looser with judge and consecration, but i still would only use 1 per cycle.

[kalbear]

Hmm. I wonder if it's better to do consecrate as soon as you can and do the judgments later. You're assuming you always do the HS/consecrate at every 10 seconds, but there's no reason you have to do consecrate then.

I would also imagine that latency would actually hurt improved judgment more. If there's latency that tends to mean casting spells later, not earlier (since you've got to make sure that HS is being cast at all times) and that'll require you to miss more judgments.

In any case, missing 4 seconds of SoR is likely to result in missing about two swings of SoR on the average. (if you think that 3 seconds should only result in 1 miss, think of the situation where you're about to swing and then judge). If that's the case, you miss two swings in 40 seconds and gain one judgment. The net result (at the 100/400 damage level) is 200 damage over 40 seconds, or 5DPS/10TPS roughly. In the best case (no weapon SoR misses, which is impossible with that cycle above), assuming that damage level, you're looking at 20 TPS total.

[Dorvan]

Assuming that damage level, you're looking at 20 TPS total.

Assuming those numbers, that 10 tps per talent point. For comparison, 1H Spec is 7 tps per point for someone sitting at a reasonably respectable 700 sustained tps. In other words, Imp Judgment still seems to be one of our better threat talents.

[kalbear]

Assuming those numbers, that 10 tps per talent point. For comparison, 1H Spec is 7 tps per point for someone sitting at a reasonably respectable 700 sustained tps. In other words, Imp Judgment still seems to be one of our better threat talents.

Right, but that's impossible since you will miss SoR hits with the above cycle, which will reduce the overall TPS by a fair amount. When you factor in that you won't be able to do that cycle optimally unless you're having zero latency and you will miss some SoR hits, it becomes about 5 TPS /talent point. That's not as good as reckoning for threat output.

Another interesting wrinkle in this is that because of spell coefficients, I believe that improved judgment scales better as you increase your spelldamage - and scales faster than spelldamage scales. This is because your damage on your SoR does not scale as quickly as the damage on JoR does per spelldamage point, so the overall improvement is greater. From a quickie calculation, you get 2.8 holy DPS if you assume one seal miss in 40 seconds (.17 DPS if you assume two seal misses) at 0 spelldamage. At 250 spelldamage you get 6.45 DPS with one miss, 2.89 with two). At 500 spelldamage you get 10.095 with one miss, 5.615 with 2. The numbers assume a 73% coefficient for JoR and a 9.2% per 1.0 seconds coefficient for SoR.

So with an optimal cycle and one miss during that cycle, you're going for roughly a .7% TPS increase at higher SD levels.

[Dorvan]

Right, but that's impossible since you will miss SoR hits with the above cycle, which will reduce the overall TPS by a fair amount. When you factor in that you won't be able to do that cycle optimally unless you're having zero latency and you will miss some SoR hits, it becomes about 5 TPS /talent point. That's not as good as reckoning for threat output.

I'd say that you're going to have to do more than hand wave to claim lag cuts its effectiveness in half...math please there. Additionally, 100/400 is a pretty low estimate of SoR/JoR damage...you hit the nail on the head with your later paragraphs about scaling

[Lore]

Adding a 0.2 second (200ms) latency to the rotation above:

0.0 HS
0.0 Judge
1.7 Consecration
3.4 SoR <- lost 3.4 seconds of SoR
8.2 Judge
8.2 SoR
10.2 HS
11.9 Consecration
16.4 Judge
16.4 SoR
20.4 HS
22.1 Consecration
24.6 Judge
24.6 SoR
30.6 HS
32.3 Consecration
32.8 Judge
34.0 SoR <- lost 2 seconds of SoR
40.8 HS
41.0 Judge <- back to where we started... kinda

Notice that the Judge is now happening slightly later than the HS, though the cooldown hasn't changed. Continuing on...

40.8 HS
41.0 Judge
42.5 Consecration
44.2 SoR <- Lost 3.2 seconds of SoR

So adding 0.2 latency actually resulted in 0.2 seconds less between judge and reseal on the next rotation.

[Dorvan]

40.8 HS
41.0 Judge
42.5 Consecration
44.2 SoR <- Lost 3.2 seconds of SoR

So adding 0.2 latency actually resulted in 0.2 seconds less between judge and reseal on the next rotation.

In fairness Lore, that's .2 seconds less than the previous rotation, but it's still .2 more than the non-lagged rotation.

[kalbear]

I'd say that you're going to have to do more than hand wave to claim lag cuts its effectiveness in half...math please there.

Sorry, I'm not being clear about my numbers. This wasn't handwaving about latency at all. That was saying that with a 3 second and 1 second delay in SoR due to refreshing HS when you can, you will miss at least one sealed swing in 40 seconds and likely will miss two sealed swings in 40 seconds. That's with the cycle that Lore presented earlier. Based on that, you get the one miss/two miss damage that I presented.

The 20 TPS number was the best possible case:

In the best case (no weapon SoR misses, which is impossible with that cycle above), assuming that damage level, you're looking at 20 TPS total.

, which isn't achievable. It assumes 0 misses from sealed swings, which isn't possible unless you're using a 3.1 or greater weapon speed weapon. You simply must miss at least one sealed swing in that time given any kind of tanking weapon. If you assume a 1.6 speed weapon, it is likely that you will miss two. (heck, in theory you could miss three hits, but that's not very likely).

Additionally, 100/400 is a pretty low estimate of SoR/JoR damage...you hit the nail on the head with your later paragraphs about scaling

It's about right at 200 spelldamage. Like I said, it increases its overall threat percentage as you increase spelldamage, but even at 500 spelldamage the overall gain assuming one less sealed swing is 10.1 DPS or about 19 TPS, and assuming two fewer sealed swings you'll be looking at 5.6 DPS/10.5 TPS.

Latency doesn't factor into it here, one way or another.

Now, how likely is it to not have a seal up for one, two, or three swings? That's a toughy because of parry mechanics. Taking parries out of the equation, assuming a 1.6 speed weapon and assuming you start swinging at 0 seconds you'd miss twice (at 0 and at 1.6 seconds) and then at 32 seconds in you'd miss again. If you start swinging a fraction before judging (at -.1 sec) you'd miss only once. If you swung at -.2 seconds, you'd miss twice again. In the 16 different ways you can start swinging (at 0 to 1.5 seconds into the cycle), you miss once in 3 seconds in only 2 of them and twice in 3 seconds in 14 of them. You also miss a swing in 10 of the 16 ways with that one second at the 32nd mark. To be fair, the 2 ways that you can miss with only one swing also happen to be 2 of the ways you will be okay with the 32 second mark. However, I'd take that out of consideration as it will be effectively impossible in real life to time your swings perfectly to the judge cycle.

In any case, it's a lot more likely that you'll miss two and even three swings than it is that you'll miss one.

So adding 0.2 latency actually resulted in 0.2 seconds less between judge and reseal on the next rotation.

It also resulted in a full second additional latency on the second delay. With that latency it is guaranteed that you will not be sealed for at least 3 swings, and you could in theory get really unlucky and miss on 4. (this is assuming a 1.6 weapon, per the other stuff).

[Dorvan]

Ah, I understand you better now. However, here's a simpler way of looking at it....since your weapon speed is independent of your skill usage, it seems like it'd be reasonable to simply consider the damage loss as proportional to the seal time loss over time. So if you're losing 5.4 seconds of SoR time every 40 second, you just have to compare a 13.5% SoR loss to a 25% JoR gain.

The SoR numbers on the threat sticky are off, but with my approach I'm actually getting similar numbers to you....interesting food for thought. I'd still value the talent for utility (judging different targets, switching judgments), but the threat, while not awful, does seem less than impressive when you have to maintain 100% HS uptime.

[kalbear]

That's a reasonable approach, but I wanted to be a bit more concrete with the numbers. Especially since it's not a continuous graph of damage and it does matter when the attacks come in.

The interesting thing to note is that the damage on SoR is greater per second than the damage on JoR, even when you factor it at an 8-second clip. The overall 1-h spell coefficient is 9.2% per 1.0 seconds. For judgments, it's 73% per judgment, or 9.125% at an 8-second judgment. Thus losing 13.5% is a bit more effecting than gaining 25%. Not much though, but it's something to note.

And then there's yet another factor: spell hit vs hit. Since SoR uses hit and paladins reach the hit cap faster than the spell hit cap, you'll likely miss more often with JoR in general. While you can get spell hit to remove this issue somewhat, it's probably not wise to focus on spell hit as a stat any more.

I guess I've pretty much convinced myself that it's not nearly as good a talent as one might think and certainly not a must-have for threat. I suspect those two points would be better in reckoning for raw threat output and utility. Heck, they might be better in PoJ, but I don't remember how speed boost correlates to threat output.

[Dorvan]

I guess I've pretty much convinced myself that it's not nearly as good a talent as one might think and certainly not a must-have for threat. I suspect those two points would be better in reckoning for raw threat output and utility. Heck, they might be better in PoJ, but I don't remember how speed boost correlates to threat output.

It's movement speed, not attack speed, so PoJ won't increase your threat at all.

I'd be loathe to give up my Imp Judgment simply because with trash or multiple adds (basically any situation where your primary DPS target switches frequently) having judgment up more quickly is a very handy thing. That said, I often chide others for overvaluing utility effects, so I suppose the same should apply to me

[Lore]

40.8 HS
41.0 Judge
42.5 Consecration
44.2 SoR <- Lost 3.2 seconds of SoR

So adding 0.2 latency actually resulted in 0.2 seconds less between judge and reseal on the next rotation.

In fairness Lore, that's .2 seconds less than the previous rotation, but it's still .2 more than the non-lagged rotation.

Right, but we already established that the non-lagged rotation won't happen, I'm simply showing that latency doesn't necessarily mean more time between reseals. Look at what happens to the next rotation:

40.8 HS
41.0 Judge
42.5 Consecration
44.2 SoR <- Lost 3.2 seconds of SoR
49.2 Judge
49.2 SoR
51.0 HS
52.7 Consecration
57.4 Judge
57.4 SoR
61.2 HS
62.9 Consecration
65.6 Judge
65.6 SoR
71.4 HS
73.1 Consecration
73.8 Judge
74.8 SoR <- Lost 1 second of SoR
81.6 HS
82.0 Judge <- end of rotation
83.3 Consecration
85.0 SoR <- Lost 3 seconds of SoR

Interestingly enough the second rotation actually chopped 1.2 seconds off the total SoR time lost for a total of 4.2 seconds. Still adding 0.2 seconds of total lost time, however that's a pretty big step down from the 1.4 seconds of lost time from the first rotation.

I'd be interesting to see how that trend continues.

EDIT: You guys posted while I was busy trying to work with numbers, jerks. Anyway yeah I'm not trying to say it's godly or that you get the full benefit out of it by any means, it just seems, from my experience anyway, as though the HS overlap occurs a lot less frequently in practice than it's showing up in theory. It could be simply that I don't judge right away a lot, at which point imp judge helps me catch back up *shrug*