Seal of Vengeance Redux

[Marle]

I couldn't find anything that would stay alive long enough to test with my two hander -_-

[Lore]

First give me mana tap and an AoE Silence.

You can have them.

[jere]

I don't have time to post the data I recorded till a bit later, but on the PTR I found that the following equation matched all my data points:

Base Damage = weapon_speed*10
Spell Damage portion = weapon_speed*spell_dmg/90

So:

Direct_Damage = weapon_speed*10 + weapon_speed*spell_dmg/90

I only tested for a a couple of hours (most of that was spent with two handers, which I usually killed stuff before I got a full stack...)

I didn't notice any difference between 1H and 2H, nor did it seem like BoM had any effect.

If anyone else is taking data, see if it matches that equation. Remember not to spec into 1H Weapon Spec and don't fight in places like Terrokar where there might be those +5% damage buffs as those will skew the results some.

Also, make sure you watch a lot of the procs for each weapon/gear that you test. The results of that equation are a decimal number most of the time and I have found that if I sit there and whack at an enemy long enough I will see the direct damage be 2 numbers, which so far have been the floor and ceiling of the numbers my equation comes up with.

[Fridmarr]

Spell damage adds so much threat to Holy Shield it's just not worth going w/ a non-spell damage sword.

Actually it doesn't, holy shield has a pretty low 5% coefficient. Spell dmg adds a lot of threat to your other skills though.

[jere]

Don't for get that Holy Shield has an innate Threat multiplier of 35% before RF is even considered, so it becomes:

1.05*1.35 = 1.4175

So there is an innate 41.75% threat coefficient (per block) before you account for RF.

If you are getting 2-3 blocks per 10 second period you are in the same ballpark as how much spell dmg threat JoR receives, and possibly higher.

[jere]

This was the data I collected so far. I need to do some more testing with the Gorehowl since stuff dies so quickly

Code: Select all

weapon     speed     spell dmg     direct dmg     expected from equation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
MGG         1.6         409         23-24             23.27
MGG         1.6         522         25-26             25.28
MGG         1.6         628         27-28             27.16
MGG         1.6         741         29-30             29.17

KD          1.6         000         16                16.00
KD          1.6         144         18-19             18.56
KD          1.6         219         19-20             19.89
KD          1.6         257         20-21             20.57
KD          1.6         363         22-23             22.45
KD          1.6         476         24-25             24.46

GPL         1.9         244         24-25             24.15
GPL         1.9         357         26-27             26.54
GPL         1.9         463         28-29             28.77
GPL         1.9         576         31-32             31.16

GH          3.6         000         36                36.00
GH          3.6         144         42                41.76
GH          3.6         219         44-45             44.76
GH          3.6         257         46-47             46.28
GH          3.6         363         50-51             50.52
GH          3.6         476         55                55.04


So I think my equation is pretty solid:

Direct_Damage = weapon_speed*10 + weapon_speed*spell_dmg/90

[Fridmarr]

Don't for get that Holy Shield has an innate Threat multiplier of 35% before RF is even considered, so it becomes:

1.05*1.35 = 1.4175

So there is an innate 41.75% threat coefficient (per block) before you account for RF.

If you are getting 2-3 blocks per 10 second period you are in the same ballpark as how much spell dmg threat JoR receives, and possibly higher.

Yeah I know, I was ignoring it because I was saying what it added to holy shield versus another skill. If you have 300spell damage your holy shield threat goes up by about 8%, your JoR threat goes up by like 90%.

The skills don't do the same amount of threat at base, so 90% of JoR may not be as much actual threat that you get from 8% holy shield, but in terms of scaling, spell damage is going to improve your non holy shield threat more, then there's the seal and consecrate.

[jere]

Yeah I know, I was ignoring it because I was saying what it added to holy shield versus another skill. If you have 300spell damage your holy shield threat goes up by about 8%, your JoR threat goes up by like 90%.

The skills don't do the same amount of threat at base, so 90% of JoR may not be as much actual threat that you get from 8% holy shield, but in terms of scaling, spell damage is going to improve your non holy shield threat more, then there's the seal and consecrate.

Gotcha.

I guess I was going more off his comment that it increases holy shield threat a lot, which it does. 8% is nothing to sneeze at. If he was comparing it to other moves, then yeah, you get an even bigger jump for them, but I think he was just talking about holy shield by itself and not doing a comparison to other skills.

[Paksennarion]

I'm inclined to run with your equation, Jere. I was testing with 1H spec, which invalidates the 1H to 2H comparison, and I was testing on the Ogres above Shatt, without thinking about Blessing of Auchindoun playing into it.

You did a lot more extensive testing than I did, so if you're satisfied that it's reasonably accurate, it's decent enough for me to calculate with.

Either way, looks to be a good buff all around, no matter how you slice it.

[jere]

I still think I need to do more testing. I copied my character over to both the PvP and the PvE servers. I made sure to do a 44/12 spec, leaving the 5 points in 1H spec out on the PvP server for testing.

I ran the test in Terrokar on the basilisks outside of shat for an hour before I realized that the blessing of Auchidon was up...so then I moved on to SMV and found a quiet spot where I probably wouldn't get ganked and tested there.

I only tested 3 weapon speeds out. I still need to go buy some different weapons and test those too, but tonight we were raiding Gruul and we have SSC for the next 2 nights, so it will probably be a while before I can put some more thorough testing in.

[onacouch]

...The issue has always been the stack falling off, with the new precision and spell hit on gear, plus the increase in duration we got in 2.2, I think it would have been dominant in 2.3 without that change, this (no pun intended) seems to seal the deal.

Isn't the proc DoT based on a PPM? Using different weapons varying in speed and hand-orientation I would normally get anywhere from 18-22 PPM, and the total average of all my tests was 20PPM.

Would spell hit increase the PPM? Would spell hit increase Seal of Command's PPM?

Overall I don't like this seal, even with this change. On a fight like Voidreaver I pull this seal out to try to build threat. I pop my wings and my pally trinket off a'lar that increases spell damage, then I try to start stacking holy vengeance (that way my holy vengeance DoT is always buffed by my 30%+ damage from wings and +290 spell damage from the trinket, as long as I'm able to refresh the DoT). I was trying this out tonight and everything was going great 'til my vengeance stack fell off. During the whole fight tonight I never once tanked him, my Vengeance stack fell off a total of 5 times, and I was attacking him from behind. The seal is just too unreliable.

If anything the rate would be more affected by melee hit... your sword has to land in order for it to even proc.

[Fridmarr]

...The issue has always been the stack falling off, with the new precision and spell hit on gear, plus the increase in duration we got in 2.2, I think it would have been dominant in 2.3 without that change, this (no pun intended) seems to seal the deal.

Isn't the proc DoT based on a PPM? Using different weapons varying in speed and hand-orientation I would normally get anywhere from 18-22 PPM, and the total average of all my tests was 20PPM.

Would spell hit increase the PPM? Would spell hit increase Seal of Command's PPM?

Overall I don't like this seal, even with this change. On a fight like Voidreaver I pull this seal out to try to build threat. I pop my wings and my pally trinket off a'lar that increases spell damage, then I try to start stacking holy vengeance (that way my holy vengeance DoT is always buffed by my 30%+ damage from wings and +290 spell damage from the trinket, as long as I'm able to refresh the DoT). I was trying this out tonight and everything was going great 'til my vengeance stack fell off. During the whole fight tonight I never once tanked him, my Vengeance stack fell off a total of 5 times, and I was attacking him from behind. The seal is just too unreliable.

If anything the rate would be more affected by melee hit... your sword has to land in order for it to even proc.

The PPM is static, it's 20 that doesn't change. However, you have to hit, it has to proc, and then not be resisted. The resist rate for a level 73 boss is 17%, so the new precision and gear helps a good bit there. Overall, I will have more +hit next patch as well, currently I have 3/5 in WE since I'm not a human, next patch I'll have 3/3 precision and 5/5 combat expertise which should net me about a 5.5% overall increase to attacks landed from the front.

Yes a slower weapon works better, I use the PVP mace which has some issues, but now that the duration of the dot is 15 seconds, I've had better luck, it still drops occaisionally, but not nearly as often as before. Heck, there were times before 2.2 where it would drop off a couple of times before I ever even got a full stack.

That said, we killed void reaver tonight and I used SoR, I don't have the confidence in SoV yet. I'll play with it more next patch.

[Zand]

I've used SoV and SoR post 2.2 on VR.

I was still doing a bit more with SoR, but it's VERY close. I'd say about 700 TPS w/ SoR and 650 TPS w/ SoV (Judged w/ non-improved SoCrusader too).

The big change with 2.3 will be, how much threat will I lose by dropping Reckoning vs how much threat will I gain w/ the improved 5-stack SoV hits?

[Mithos]

SoR beats SoV at 932 spell dmg without imp judge or imp SoR. This just makes the treshold go up quite a fair bit. Also if you stack dmg modifiers before the stack, SoV is clearly far superior even after this threshold, up to a limit, as the damage is permanant assuming constant stack.

[Agravaine]

Just ran some additional numbers on SoV stack drop chance.

Assuming that you had precision prior to 2.3 and were a non-human, without Weapon X using the somewhat standard 1.6 delay gladiator-style mace, then your chance to apply a stack of SoV on a given attack was roughly 30.5%. As a result, your chance to drop a stack was correspondingly 2.7%. Another way to think about this is that if a fight went longer than 9.25 minutes, you would be statistically certain to loose your stack.

With the changes to Weapon X (which I assume all of us will now get), and the changes to precision, I calculate that your chance to apply a stack as 38.5%, your chance to drop a stack at 1.0%, and a fight has to last 25.0 minutes to be certain to loose your stack.

In sum:

Chance to Apply 30.5% --> 38.5%
Chance to Drop a Stack 2.7% --> 1.0%
Time till Certain Stack Drop 9.25 minutes --> 25.0 minutes

With the changes from 12.0 seconds to 15.0 seconds in duration, along with the changes to precision and Weapon X, whether you use SoV or SoR should be independent of stack dropping fears.