Mitigation Differences in Nax 7.25 gear (Wall of numbers)

[Garath.Gorefiend]

Hey all, I took some time this week and finished my simulator for now. It allows me to put in all the stats and run comparatives between warriors and paladins in different gear sets to compare numbers.

So, I took the Tier 7.5 gear and also about the best drops I could find coming from the end game dungeons that have been listed so far.

Then equipped exactly the same gear on both paladin and warrior.

All numbers are stated as percent effective mitigation.

Gemmed and enchanted it the same as well.

Code: Select all

Paladin Gear:
10.96 Miss, 20.20 Dodge, 19.97 Parry, 19.26/24.26 Block (Paladin/Warrior)
Talented BV: 1263 Armor Mitigation: 61.01%.

3,300 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    1158     93.57   93.54    93.61    93.46    93.55    93.62    93.52
Paladin    1209     100     99.99    99.74    99.36    98.82    96.48    95.03

5,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    1754     92.21   92.21    92.24    92.20    92.17    92.18    92.16
Paladin    1832     93.97   94.00    93.82    93.56    93.20    91.55    90.67

7,500 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    2631     90.40   90.50    90.46    90.40    90.44    90.41    90.41
Paladin    2748     90.04   90.04    89.94    89.71    89.54    88.41    87.87

10,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    3509     88.82   88.86    88.85    88.82    88.88    88.78    88.91
Paladin    3665     88.03   88.03    88.00    87.83    87.70    86.86    86.42

16,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    5614     86.80   86.81    86.77    86.80    86.78    86.79    86.78
Paladin    5864     85.75   85.72    85.74    85.70    85.65    85.10    84.86

25,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    8772     86.12   86.09
Paladin    9162     85.20   85.10

30,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior   10527     85.72   85.66
Paladin   10995     84.86   84.73


Code: Select all

Warrior Gear:
10.68 Miss, 25.12 Dodge, 20.82 Parry, 16.72/21.72 Block (Paladin/Warrior)
Talented BV: 1068 Armor Mitigation: 61.01%.

3,300 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    1158     94.07   93.96    94.01    94.07    94.03    94.00    94.02
Paladin    1209     98.13   98.13    98.03    97.77    97.42    95.55    94.24

5,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    1754     92.73   92.75    92.72    92.65    92.72    92.79    92.71
Paladin    1832     93.38    93.30   93.29    93.09    92.89    91.67    90.83

7,500 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    2631     90.83   90.85    90.84    90.89    90.85    90.85    90.80
Paladin    2748     90.29    90.29   90.20    90.07    89.99    89.16    88.61

10,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    3509     89.70   89.60    89.64    89.65    89.62    89.63    89.64
Paladin    3665     88.72   88.69    88.65    88.60    88.49    87.84    87.41

16,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    5614     87.88   87.87    87.83    87.80    87.91    87.88    87.85
Paladin    5864     87.06   87.05    86.97    86.89    86.91    86.49    86.21

25,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior    8772     86.78   86.75
Paladin    9162     85.94   85.91

30,000 Raw (unmitigated melee hit)
          MitHit      1       2        3        4         5       10       20
Warrior   10527     86.45   86.42
Paladin   10995     85.65   85.67


A few conclusions:

1) Warriors block mechanic is more effective in multi-mob scenarios

2) Paladin mechanics are best suited to tanking low-hitting trash mobs. Mobs that hit for mitigated amounts lower than 1.5* the block value of the paladin.

3) Most of the mitigation difference would be alleviated if paladins had their base mitigation thru talents changed from 6% to 10% to match the warriors gain from defensive stance.

4) Tier 7.25 warrior itemization is more effective for tanking hard hitters

5) Tier 7.25 Paladin itemization is more effective for tanking trash.

[Extermi]

I would also believe having RF offering close to 10% bonus (e.g. by switching Sanctuary to a self-only buff, yielding 9%) would largely close the gap we face now, maybe even put us ahead. Its really close already.

Extermi

[Mavrix]

I really am not excited about a set of gear that makes me better at tanking trash unless the non-tier gear is at least as good for tanking bosses so that I still have that option. As someone pointed out previously, trash is not what holds up progression. Guilds don't choose their tanks based on who tanks trash best.

[Equitas]

Thx for posting,

although would you care to elaborate how you came to your conclusions, from the numbers itself the mitigation is pretty much the same with a 1-2 % difference =/

[Arcand]

from the numbers itself the mitigation is pretty much the same with a 1-2 % difference =/

The story of our lives.

[Tahl]

Good start, but two important points:

1. These hits are not big enough. On your chart, damage after mitigation is 5-6k tops; there are already bosses in BC that hit harder than this. The trend already shows that the larger hits favor warriors more and more; if you continue to realistic level 80 25-man raid boss damage you'll notice the difference grows larger and larger.

2. To those who say it's "only 2% or so" -- remember that you can't look at one number representing total mitigation, you have to look at actual damage taken. If two tanks take a 20k raw hit each, and Tank A has 60% total mitigation and Tank B has 62% (only 2% difference), Tank B will take 7.6k damage and Tank A will take 8k (400 more). Yes, 400 damage is 2% of 20k, but Tank A just took 5.26% more actual damage than Tank B. (7600 * 1.0526 = 8000) You should not be interested in total mitigation or raw hit sizes as much as the actual damage taken after all mitigation is factored in.

[Morendin]

it's within 1-2% in terms of the total, pre-mitigation damage....this is quite, quite different than actual incoming damage.
just to pick one,
87.88 vs 87.06 is .82% difference in % of pre-mit strike, but the paladin is taking 6.76% more damage.

[PsiVen]

There is offset tanking gear. Replace the tier pieces you don't like with it and see how those numbers pan out. If the itemization isn't there I'll agree that it's dumb to have our tier set that specialized, but if it is I'm really tired of hearing about how our gear is different than warriors and that that's bad.

Mitigation of course is not going to change much across the board from a large warrior advantage. We need more EH if we're going to be competitive, that much is clear. Thanks for the numbers Garath If you want to see WotLK boss level hits crank em up to 6k-10k mitigated (25-mans probably even higher).

[snowwight]

I'm confused on what the numbers going from 1 to 20 signify. Is that the number of simulated hits?

[Tahl]

There is offset tanking gear. Replace the tier pieces you don't like with it and see how those numbers pan out. If the itemization isn't there I'll agree that it's dumb to have our tier set that specialized, but if it is I'm really tired of hearing about how our gear is different than warriors and that that's bad.

Actually he already did this -- he tried it with our tier paladin gear and then with a more ideal set of warrior tier gear and offset pieces, the ones that have better avoidance and less block.

From OP: "So, I took the Tier 7.5 gear and also about the best drops I could find coming from the end game dungeons that have been listed so far. Then equipped exactly the same gear on both paladin and warrior."

Therefore this is a valid comparison and you can choose whether to look at it while wearing our tier gear, or a "best-case" scenario where we can find offset gear equal to the warrior tier gear (which is yet to be seen if that's possible).

The two points remain though -- need bigger hits, and numbers based on actual damage taken rather than total mitigation.

[Myndle]

In those gear sets, what health totals did each toon have? Curious how different they were in the starter raid gear.

[Garath.Gorefiend]

I'm confused on what the numbers going from 1 to 20 signify. Is that the number of simulated hits?

No, that is the number of mobs simultaneously attacking you...simulation of AoE fights

[Garath.Gorefiend]

it's within 1-2% in terms of the total, pre-mitigation damage....this is quite, quite different than actual incoming damage.
just to pick one,
87.88 vs 87.06 is .82% difference in % of pre-mit strike, but the paladin is taking 6.76% more damage.

Yup, exactly, you can look at it and say we are within a couple of percent mitigation, but the difference in damage taken is large

[Garath.Gorefiend]

Thx for posting,

although would you care to elaborate how you came to your conclusions, from the numbers itself the mitigation is pretty much the same with a 1-2 % difference =/

Basically, it is all run through a simulator. Options you have is to specify your gear, class and talents.

You then specify the mob raw hit, attack speed and number of hits to simulate.

All the samples were run with 100,000 attacks to smooth out random spikes

All incoming damage is melee damage.

Simulator ensures that HS or Shield block fire as soon as available.

Mitigation talents are taken into account automatically.

Originally wrote the simulator to test out the warrior shield mechanic talent changes and was surprised at its effectiveness and scaling.

[Murbella]

There is offset tanking gear. Replace the tier pieces you don't like with it and see how those numbers pan out. If the itemization isn't there I'll agree that it's dumb to have our tier set that specialized, but if it is I'm really tired of hearing about how our gear is different than warriors and that that's bad.

Mitigation of course is not going to change much across the board from a large warrior advantage. We need more EH if we're going to be competitive, that much is clear. Thanks for the numbers Garath If you want to see WotLK boss level hits crank em up to 6k-10k mitigated (25-mans probably even higher).

What is even the point of the paladin tier tanking gear then, trash mobs?