Avoidance in WotLK (diminishing returns)

[Modal]

Yeah, I posted a follow up question in that thread, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Hankthetank]

What happends when then release the content patch? Will alot of us drop below uncrushble?

Likely, but uncrushable will cease to be a meaningful term.

It'll make it harder to solo Garr, though.

[Lore]

What happends when then release the content patch? Will alot of us drop below uncrushble?

Likely, but uncrushable will cease to be a meaningful term.

It'll make it harder to solo Garr, though.

Eh, just go Ret and beat his face in.

[moduspwnens]

Nah, they're removing the bindings in 3.0 so that having Thunderfury is accurately a Feat of Strength. You'll still be able to solo Garr, but just for kicks.

I wish. :(

There's nothing between this line and the last. Really.

[Arcand]

I'll assume that there are no bugs.

Defense Rating to Defense:
(0, 350)
(23, 359) gives 2.56 rating per 1 skill.
(42, 367) gives 2.47 rating per 1 skill.
(46, 369) gives 2.42 rating per 1 skill.
(346, 496) gives 2.37 rating per 1 skill.
[b]Summary: Defense Rating to Defense looks roughly linear, although the rating:skill ratio declines steadily and further than can be explained away by rounding. The ratio seems to be in the 2.4 neighborhood.[/i]

Defense Rating and Dodge Rating interaction with Dodge:
Baseline (0, 0, 8.63)
(Def Rating, Dodge Rating, Increase in Dodge above baseline 8.63%)
(23, 38, 2.43)
(46, 76, 4.81)
(42, 0, 0.72)
(Hesitant to use the full tank set point, because it has some extra Agi. Could I persuade you to take those pants off, big boy? It's for science.)

So 42 def rating is about 17.5 defense and gives .72 dodge, or 0.04 dodge per point of defense. Good. We're accustomed to that.

23 def rating gives 9 defense, which should be 0.36 dodge. So the remaining 2.07 dodge comes from 38 dodge rating, and that gives 0.054 dodge per point of dodge rating at the (23, 38) level.

Using the full tank set data and assuming (ugh) that the agility coefficient is constant, we have (346, 147, 13.57) because 0.48 of the dodge is attributed to the extra agility.

With 346 defense rating giving 496 defense, that's 5.84 dodge attributed to contribution from defense, meaning 7.73 dodge is coming from the 147 dodge rating.

(0.05 dodge per point of dodge rating)

RL interfering, back later.

Edit: Damn you, emoticons!

[Modal]

So 42 def rating is about 17.5 defense and gives .72 dodge, or 0.04 dodge per point of defense. Good. We're accustomed to that.

Uh, 17 * .04 = .68. This is one of the anomalous results I was pointing to given our current formulas. Only block % is getting the expected value from defense skill on beta currently.

[Arcand]

So 42 def rating is about 17.5 defense and gives .72 dodge, or 0.04 dodge per point of defense. Good. We're accustomed to that.

Uh, 17 * .04 = .68. This is one of the anomalous results I was pointing to given our current formulas.

And 18 * .04 = .72, so one explanation is that values aren't getting rounded the way (or at the times) you expect.

If there's a subtle departure from linearity to be found, I'll be first in line to help find and analyze it - but so far I don't see any discrepancy larger than our possible roundoff error, so I'm not excited.

I'm actually more curious about the defense rating:defense skill ratios I worked out; those seem to be moving purposefully downward, and further than I can explain away by roundoff.

[Modal]

I'm actually more curious about the defense rating:defense skill ratios I worked out; those seem to be moving purposefully downward, and further than I can explain away by roundoff.

Nope, this is obviously just a result of rounding. Defense rating:defense skill ratio is the same as it is on live. At level 70, it's Defense Skill = Defense Rating / (2.365385056). At 23 defense rating, that's ~9.72 skill--but fractional values don't count, so that adds 9 defense skill. At 42 defense skill, it's ~17.76. At 46, it's ~19.46. At 346, it's ~146.28. The behavior you're seeing is just the result of dropping the remainder. Nothing to see here.

It's the apparent diminishing returns on dodge rating and the fact that dodge/parry are not getting .04% per defense skill (although block still is) that are novel phenomena that differ from live TBC.

Edit: I had a * where I meant /

[Modal]

Question for the forums, btw. I'm trying to get a handle on how Agi affects Dodge. But I'm not sure how base Agility and base Dodge % interact. Does base Agility get factored into Dodge % in the same way as the rest? Is there some base Dodge % that one has even with 0 Agility?

Edit: I mean on live, of course. Not expecting people to know how it works in beta.

[Modal]

Nevermind, testing on my shaman shows agility increasing dodge % at exactly the same, linear rate as on live.

[Modal]

Since it was requested, btw, here are my pantsless (no +Agility) numbers

Pantless Tank Set
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 320
Defense Skill: 485
Dodge Rating: 147
Dodge Chance: 21.72%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 10.64%
Block Rating: 17
Block Chance: 12.56%

[Modal]

Ok more data:

*Note that in sets of gear with some defense rating, I've calculated dodge/rating using two different assumptions: (1) that the contribution from defense is the same as the contribution that parry is getting and (2) that the contribution from defense is what we would expect on live (.04 per defense skill).

Naked
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 0
Defense Skill: 350
Dodge Rating: 0
Dodge Chance: 8.63%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 5.00%
Block Rating: 0
Block Chance: 5.00%

Pocketwatch Only
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 0
Defense Skill: 350
Dodge Rating: 38
Dodge Chance: 10.69%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 5.00%
Block Rating: 0
Block Chance: 5.00%

Dodge per Rating: .0542

Normal Tank Gear Except Pants
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 320
Defense Skill: 485
Dodge Rating: 147
Dodge Chance: 21.72%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 10.64%
Block Rating: 17
Block Chance: 12.56%

Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.64 from defense): .0507
Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.4 from defense): .0523

Stacked Dodge as high as I could
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 331
Defense Skill: 489
Dodge Rating: 277
Dodge Chance: 27.49%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 10.81%
Block Rating: 17
Block Chance: 12.72%

Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.81 from defense): .0471
Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.56 from defense): .0480

Naked with Pocketwatch Used
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 0
Defense Skill: 350
Dodge Rating: 338
Dodge Chance: 24.05%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 5.00%
Block Rating: 0
Block Chance: 5.00%

Dodge per Rating: .0456

Stacked Dodge + Used Tortoise
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 331
Defense Skill: 489
Dodge Rating: 442
Dodge Chance: 33.58%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 10.81%
Block Rating: 17
Block Chance: 12.72%

Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.81 from defense): .0433
Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.56 from defense): .0439

Stacked Dodge + Used Pocketwatch
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 331
Defense Skill: 489
Dodge Rating: 577
Dodge Chance: 37.87%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 10.81%
Block Rating: 17
Block Chance: 12.72%

Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.81 from defense): .0406
Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.56 from defense): .0410

Stacked Dodge + Used Pocketwatch & Tortoise
Agility: 74
Defense Rating: 331
Defense Skill: 489
Dodge Rating: 742
Dodge Chance: 42.44%
Parry Rating: 0
Parry Chance: 10.81%
Block Rating: 17
Block Chance: 12.72%

Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.81 from defense): .0377
Dodge per Rating (assuming 5.56 from defense): .0381

[Modal]

Using my preferred set of assumptions, we have:

Code: Select all

Dodge Rating     Dodge % per Rating
       38            .0542
      147            .0507
      277            .0471
      338            .0456
      442            .0433
      577            .0406
      742            .0377

Convinced yet?

[Digren]

So what I'm wondering is: is this a soft cap on dodge rating, or is it a soft cap on dodge? Without being able to pore through all the data again, is the contribution toward dodge from agility and defense confirmed to both be exactly linear still? From your last post, the fact that you subtract the same amount for the contribution to dodge from defense implies that you've determined it's linear. It sounds like the contribution to dodge from agility has also been determined to be linear as well?

In that case, I think this is a soft cap on dodge rating specifically to make that stat less desirable in the end game. It looks like somewhere around 2590 dodge rating, each additional point become worthless (i.e. no gain in dodge). I'm sure somewhere long before that each point becomes less valuable than parry rating or defense rating (or agility), making it unlikely anyone would chose to stack dodge rating up to 2590 anyway.

[Modal]

It looks that way to me. I don't have the agility gear to test on my paladin, but double-checking on my enh shaman showed the exact same agi:dodge ratio as on live, at all levels of agility I could test.

Defense is not behaving exactly like it does on live--it actually appears to be giving slightly more than .04% per point. So yes, this is just dodge rating that is giving diminishing returns. Probably parry rating too, and maybe block. I don't really have the gear to test that myself.